Any reason not to do fundies equivalent with ISE?

[Blackbay]

There are few things that make me as happy as improving my skills underwater and just becoming a better diver. I'm happy with the few steps I've already taken towards configuring my rig the hogarthian way. Now, I'd like to see if DIR is for me and pursue some instruction. There are two GUE instructors (Primer, Fundamentals, Rec 1) not too far away and one ISE instructor trainer & evaluator who just so happens to operate my LDS. He's got a good reputation locally and I'm going to have a relationship with him either way, whether that's as an instructor or just filling tanks.

Other than the fact that ISE is still figuring their way out as an organization and the language issue (I can deal with the typos - I see a lot worse day to day here) is there any reason I shouldn't sign up? Usually I'd focus on instructor, not agency, but there's a good chance I'll be moving to the US in the next 2 or 3 years. Will I be able to do low-level cross overs to GUE/UTD/any other DIR certification agency (pending assessment, of course)? Anything else to take into consideration?

Caveat: It's 2 am here; please don't think I'm rude if I don't reply right away

 

[decompression]

I can speak for a crossover to UTD, every UTD instructor is allowed to assess a persons skill set and see at which level they would fit into the system. Further, if taking certain courses within UTD, such as sidemount, you are granted your current training limits with your new skill. I believe there are a few german instructors if none in Switzerland, maybe Austria?. There are tons of videos from UTD on youtube that are excellent for equipment configuration and protocols. Best of luck.


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[PfcAJ]

Mostly because no one knows wtf ISE is. Second is that you'll have a tough time (to say the least) attempting to do a GUE crossover.

 

[nadwidny]

Another disgruntled ex-GUE guy starts his own agency and brings his buddies in to be instructors. That's not where I would spend my money if I knew there was a good chance I would be looking elsewhere for further training unless you were willing to downgrade and look outside GUE/UTD.

 

[Oldbear]

If you want to go GUE than I would go GUE. If you are set on taking a ISE course than take it. You can also ask your local GUE instructors if they accept ISE courses...you might end up taking both GUE and ISE fundies...which is not necessarily a bad thing, just more money.

 

[Blackbay]

Thank you, decompression. I’ve already subscribed to UTD’s youtube channel.

I’m not set on where I go. I’m a recreational diver wanting to invest in skill-development before anything else. With that criteria, the basics of any of these three organizations should work, so I’m told. Whether an agency is a GUE ‘knock-off’ or not is pretty low on my list of priorities. If I come out a better diver for having done a course, it hardly matters whose logo I have on my card.

The only reason I’m considering ISE at all is because I get a (comparatively higher) qualified instructor and supportive LDS with a large group of similarly trained divers to mentor me for the next couple of years. The relationship is important to me because I haven’t been living here very long and don’t have anybody DIR compliant to dive with or get advice from. Comparatively, UTD’s closest base is in Italy and the only impression I’ve gotten of GUE locally consists of a number of inactive websites. I’m going to give the GUE instructor a call anyway to see if that’s because they’re just out diving instead of updating their blogs

However, I want to make sure I’m not shooting myself in the foot in the name of convenience and by that I mean: what are the chances training further with ISE might not be recognized or accepted outside Europe, for instance not being able to get gas? Will I have a hard time finding DIR divers qualified through other agencies willing to dive with me? I know some procedures and routing options differ, so and I’d like to know what your deciding factor was in settling on your agency outside of their having a strong presence where you live.

---------- Post added August 30th, 2014 at 05:34 PM ----------

If you want to go GUE than I would go GUE. If you are set on taking a ISE course than take it. You can also ask your local GUE instructors if they accept ISE courses...you might end up taking both GUE and ISE fundies...which is not necessarily a bad thing, just more money.

Yes exactly, I was hoping to avoid that but I think it might end up that way.

I don’t believe I’ve had enough exposure to DIR, technical diving or actually diving at all to be able to say definitively which direction I’d like to go. I’m passionate about it beyond words and I want to try everything, so even though I’ve always loved wrecks and the idea of caves and cenotes, I don’t think I have the experience or knowledge to be able to take that call yet. That’s why I plan to take the class in singles, because it’s the only kind of diving I see myself doing right now and I want to get it right before moving on to something else. I assume that would automatically disqualify me for GUE’s tech pass anyway, so if I change my mind and want to do any further training, I’ll need to retake Fundamentals for the tech pass anyway. I guess that would make this whole exercise less a question of downgrading and more of just not knowing what I want yet.

 

[TSandM]

I think it's great to take any of the classes for skills improvement. And the improved skills will definitely make your single tank diving more fun. If you have a community of ISE folks with whom to dive, that's also super, because team diving is more obviously valuable when you have a team.i

From a strategy standpoint, however, things may look different. If you want to go on to GUE technical classes, you have to have a tech pass from Fundies. Most likely, that will mean taking the whole class, whereas if you take it in a single tank and get a rec pass, you have the option of upgrading for a much smaller cost in the future. (BTW, I think taking the class in a single tank is the way to go -- build good habits right away, and they translate to doubles very easily.)

I don't know how accepted ISE is in Europe, but I can tell you it's unknown in the US. But you are already OW certified -- the only thing a Fundies card gets you beyond that is Nitrox. I don't know what the equivalent ISE class does, but most dive operators I've dived with just want SOMETHING that says you are Nitrox certified, and they aren't terribly fussy about what it is.

I can tell you that Mario Arena, in Italy, is very actively diving. I don't know if that's the website you were looking at or not. There are 11 GUE instructors in Italy, a similar number in Germany, and two in Switzerland itself. I don't think lack of an instructor or dive buddies should be an issue. (Italy has 11 instructors for a population of 60 million and an area of a little over 100K square miles; the US has only 20, for a population of 300 million and an area of 3 million square miles. I think you guys are lucky!)

 

[MarkHerm]

That is an interesting topic as I went down exactly that route. So I'll share my personal experience with ISE and GUE.

Two or three years ago, I only did rec dives and wanted to improve my diving skills. While I had no specific interest in tech diving, I played with the idea of cave diving eventually. So I wanted to develop good fundamentals skills to improve my rec diving as well as building good habits for future cave diving.

I wanted to take a GUE fundies but coincidentally I had an ISE instructor locally. So I went that route. I did the four days ISE BoE (~ Fundies equiv) and the course was ok. The instructor made an effort to offer quality training and we basically went through all the stuff that you would theoretically expect in a GUE Fundies. But, there were some things that I did not like very much.
First, the materials for the course were very bad. It looked as if someone took an afternoon to write some stuff down with no effort, no proof reading, nothing. Second, the course is way too cramped. While this may be true for Fundies as well, it is even more so with the BoE. They not only want you to learn the basic procedures, but they also put in some so called critical skills (which is "real" emergency handling like the instructor sneaks in and rips off your mask while doing an air share or he shuts off your left post without your notice so you'll go OOG for real when doing the next S drill as a donor) and exploration techniques like measuring objects and drawing a map. This is simply too much. And while I did not bad on the course I always felt that I scratched a lot of stuff but that I learned nothing thoroughly. Third, while ISE may have some reputation in the German speaking world, it totally lacks reputation in the rest of the word IMO. This is true for for the rest of Europe as well IMO. Just take a look at DIR Explorers forum (a more or less British message board) and you'll see that even there, ISE is basically non existant.

So, even though I took the BoE and definitely learned something, I always felt that I am not really good at the basics. So this year (a couple of years later), I decided to take GUE Fundies, just to see, what I may have missed (even though I did cave training in the meanwhile). And I am so glad, I did it!! I took the course with one of the best known German GUE instructors and boy, it was a night and day difference! The course had more structure, more focus on (important!) details and was definitely more bang for the buck! If I could do it all again, I'd pass on the ISE course and I'd go to GUE right away.

Don't get me wrong, the ISE course is not bad. But the GUE course was simply better. Of course, this is just my personal experience and it may be very well a question of the specific instructor but I personally recommend GUE. Besides, being GUE trained opens up a huge diving community around the world. ISE cannot offer anything similar.

If you have any further question, please feel free to ask. You can send me a private message if you want.

 

[nadwidny]

Besides, being GUE trained opens up a huge diving community around the world.

This to me is the biggest advantage to going the GUE route. I've been a CCR diver for the past 6 years so I'm not a GUE choir boy. But with my GUE training I can go anywhere GUE folks are and I know, and they know, that we are all on the same page as long as I'm following GUE protocol. They know I've been vetted to a very high standard and I know they have been vetted to a very high standard and I have no problem doing any dive, any where, any time with another GUE trained diver.

 

[kathydee]

I just had to look ISE up. No idea what it is, but I do know that GUE instructors are top notch, and passing GUE Fundies is the key to accessing the amazing global GUE community. Through this network, I've dove with great divers from 18 different countries, been offered equipment loans, places to stay, access to special dive sites, private boats, etc. Originally I was faced with the decision of pursuing GUE or taking a similar training path. Reason kicked in, why train with an agency that is a step away from the source? Why not just go to the source? I'm very glad I did .

You might get in touch with the local GUE instructors to check how many of our divers are in your area. There are quite a few large GUE communities in Europe (Italy, Netherlands, Germany, Portugal, UK, etc). The training is gaining in popularity, so there may be an active local community nearby.

Not sure about a crossover. There may be rare exceptions, but generally there are no crossovers in GUE. You start with Fundies.