From the other side...

[KrisB]

In Ontario there is nothing except "try to keep a distance"....paraphrased of course but there is no definiteion NOR is there any consequences.

Canada-wide, there is a requirement for licensing of recreational boaters. It is cheap (~$20 for life) to take the test... though the test is a bit of a joke.

I wrote it cold (i.e. no studying at all) and got like 95%.

[it_mike]

Virginia instituted a phased licensing approach in 2007. I have about another year before it's required for my age group. Just to sail my Hobie 16.

BTW, I'm against all government licenses. Penalize people for doing something wrong, not for just wanting to do something. Unlike SCUBA cert., a DL is mandatory to operate, time limited, and expensive over the life of the operator. I dove for a decade before getting my card, and could easily dive now without one. A c-card is not required to dive, merely required by most shops to make purchases, and boats to dive, thereby limiting their liability.

[SkipperJohn]

In the last 3 or so months since I started this post I have been on both sides almost equally now. And yeah, the violations against a dive boat are constant and obviously more severe. Just about every time I anchor and raise the dive flags (typically 3 dive flags, bow, top and on my drift line, and a code-a on top) it almost guarantees some knucklehead is going to come motor by to see what we are doing. And by "motor by" I mean pass within 100 feet while we are out in the ocean with miles in all directions of open water.

[derwoodwithasherwood]

Canada-wide, there is a requirement for licensing of recreational boaters. It is cheap (~$20 for life) to take the test... though the test is a bit of a joke.

Actually, it's not a "license". The Pleasure Craft Operator Card is "proof of compentency". Written test only, good for life. While each provider's test questions must be approved by the Coast Guard, the whole system is provided through private companies. Costs are up to the provider, but typically range from about $25 on upwards of $60.

And yes, the whole thing is a bit of a joke. Especially the online testing, which is easily spoofed. And the real kicker: you don't need it if you don't own your own boat! If you rent a boat, all you need is a copy of the rental agreement -- the rental company is supposed to give you a 5 minute dockside safety talk before you head out.

So, the people who are most likely to know the rules are the people who must show proof of competency. The people who are least likely to be competent don't have to carry proof of their ignorance.

On a slightly divergent note: I went into a fairly large and well stocked dive shop the other day and attempted to purchase the required "rigid representation of the international code Alpha flag", which is required to be displayed on board a boat in Canadian waters when engaged in diving operations. Not only did they not carry it, they didn't know what it meant and insisted that the traditional red/white dive flag was required to be flown.

Ignorance is bliss.

[KrisB]

Actually, it's not a "license". The Pleasure Craft Operator Card is "proof of compentency". Written test only, good for life.

Ok, now we're splitting hairs. But I'll bite -- since the last part of the gradual phase-in has been completed, is it not akin to a drivers license where you will be fined if you don't have one when you're "pulled over" ?

While each provider's test questions must be approved by the Coast Guard, the whole system is provided through private companies. Costs are up to the provider, but typically range from about $25 on upwards of $60.

And yes, the whole thing is a bit of a joke. Especially the online testing, which is easily spoofed.

No kidding. Even the in-person testing. When I took mine about 5 years ago, I had a couple mistakes (ambiguous questions/answers -- VERY poorly created exam)... apparently I had one too many wrong, so the guy went over them with me, and handed me back the same exam and said "try again -- you should do better this time". What do you know -- I aced it.

And the real kicker: you don't need it if you don't own your own boat! If you rent a boat, all you need is a copy of the rental agreement -- the rental company is supposed to give you a 5 minute dockside safety talk before you head out.

PARDON ME??? I find that hard to believe -- the "course" (which some of the card-makers are offering) takes a lot longer than 5 minutes, and so does reading the book that you're supposed to before taking the test.

So, the people who are most likely to know the rules are the people who must show proof of competency. The people who are least likely to be competent don't have to carry proof of their ignorance.

Yup. Not that it's too different from most marine situations -- before this came into effect, it was only commercial operators that needed proof of competency, and they are usually the ones most likely to be competent... hrm...

On a slightly divergent note: I went into a fairly large and well stocked dive shop the other day and attempted to purchase the required "rigid representation of the international code Alpha flag", which is required to be displayed on board a boat in Canadian waters when engaged in diving operations. Not only did they not carry it, they didn't know what it meant and insisted that the traditional red/white dive flag was required to be flown.

Are inland waters differentiated from near-shore and off-shore waters when it comes to that particular jurisdiction? I seem to remember that BC's lakes are "owned" (and hence, policed) by the Her Majesty in Right of British Columbia (i.e. the province), whereas the oceanic coastline is Her Majesty in Right of Canada (i.e. federal)... could that be relevant to the dive flag differentiation?

[DennisS]

The Florida dive flag size makes no sense for me, unless it is based on convenience and not visibility

3. The minimum size for any divers-down flag displayed on a buoy or float towed by the diver is 12 inches by 12 inches. The minimum size for any divers-down flag displayed from a vessel or structure is 20 inches by 24 inches.

Why is the size requirement for a boat flag, that is usually at least 5 foot above the water, greater than a flag that sometimes is only 6-8 inches above the water. Hanky sized flags, a few inches, above the water are next to impossible to see in a chop or going into the sun.

A boat going 30 mph covers approx 860 yards in 1 minute (60 seconds) (almost 9 football fields), That means it's traveling 430 yards in 30 seconds, 215 yards in 15 seconds, 107 yards in 7 seconds. If the driver is looking at another boat passing on his port side for a few seconds, he can be on the dive flag before he sees it. How far can someone see one of those small flags when it's flat, how far in a chop, 100 yds? A 12"x12" flag on a small float gives the diver a false sense of security.

[derwoodwithasherwood]

Ok, now we're splitting hairs. But I'll bite -- since the last part of the gradual phase-in has been completed, is it not akin to a drivers license where you will be fined if you don't have one when you're "pulled over" ?

A "license" is a permission to do something. It can be revoked. The PCOC card is a certification that (supposedly) you know what you are doing.

Think of it this way: a person can attend a driver's ed course and get a pretty little certificate and card to present to their future insurance company. In Ontario, they can even take the road test earlier if they have that certification. But they can't drive a car until and unless they pass the tests. And if they screw up too often and rack up the demerit points, they can have that permission revoked.

Requiring boaters to carry the card does make it license-like in one respect: it provides the cops with ID so they can ticket you under the contraventions act.

... the guy went over them with me, and handed me back the same exam and said "try again -- you should do better this time". What do you know -- I aced it.

Big no-no. They are not supposed to let you re-write for at least 24 hours. Theoretically, their right to issue PCOCs can be suspended for that.

PARDON ME??? I find that hard to believe -- the "course" (which some of the card-makers are offering) takes a lot longer than 5 minutes, and so does reading the book that you're supposed to before taking the test.

Yup. I actually teach the course for our lake association. It takes 4 hours for the course alone, not counting breaks, and most people need at least 30 minutes to write the test. 6 hours is probably closer to the total.

There are actually 2 additional exemptions:
Foreign residents who accompany their boat into Canada, for a period of 44 consecutive days or less. So an American can tow his boat across the border for a fishing trip every year and not need to carry proof of competency. (He must carry proof of residency at all times though).

And a foreign resident who has obtained an equivalent proof from his home state may carry that instead of a Canadian PCOC. (and again, must also carry proof of residency). So an American who owns a cottage in Canada and leaves his boat here year-round only needs a PCOC if he doesn't already have something similar from home.

Of course, in each case, the cops have ID available to them so they can issue tickets.

Since I've wandered so far off topic now, here's another bit of PCOC enforcement trivia: By definition, the "Operator" is the person who has charge of the boat, not necessarily the person driving the boat. You can, for example, let your kid drive the boat so long as you are in the boat and you have a PCOC. The flip side is that if the kid screws up, you get the ticket 'cause you have the PCOC. Unfortunately, it also means that if you are a guest on your buddy's boat, and he screws up, and he doesn't have a PCOC, but you do, guess who gets the ticket?

Are inland waters differentiated from near-shore and off-shore waters when it comes to that particular jurisdiction? I seem to remember that BC's lakes are "owned" (and hence, policed) by the Her Majesty in Right of British Columbia (i.e. the province), whereas the oceanic coastline is Her Majesty in Right of Canada (i.e. federal)... could that be relevant to the dive flag differentiation?

Nope. Canadian waters are Canadian waters. The Canada Shipping Act applies to all navigable waters in Canada (Actually, so do a few other federal acts -- DFO has jurisdiction over work in and around any body of water with fish in it, etc.). However, provincial police have the authority to enforce federal regulations within their jurisdiction and the court systems are all run by the provinces (except Federal Court and the Supreme Court, of course).

So (in a thinly veiled attempt to get back on topic) if your Canadian PCOC-less buddy flies a diver down flag instead of code Alpha when he takes you diving, the local cops can ticket you while he sneaks off down-river without a dive float to betray his presence.

Hey, that's got me thinking: where can I get a good deal on a re-breather? <lol>

[chokdeekap]

i think the problem with the flags and lack licensing for boat operators is the fact that each state as its own laws, why not lobby for federal legislation regarding both issues

[dburg30]

I'm for the education...but against licensing.... It is the responsibility of each person to learn and know and follow the law which of course needs to be enforced. I like to think it can be done without licensing! Kinda like SCUBA.

I sincerely appreciate you cautious, courteous and knowledgeable boat captains.

BUT if you have a license, you arent as able to play the 'oh, I didnt know that' card. A

I fully support the licensing as long as its not cost prohibitive. It provides another means of penalization for those who break the rules. Get caught-fines/lose your license. Get caught again-major penalty for no license. Just like driving. If anything boating should have more strict licensing since it really can be more dangerous than driving on land, as was said a few times already by john- no breaks and less maneuverability! Im working on my seatime to get my masters ticket and ive got to say... its a heck of a lot more studying and more practicing than i ever had to do for my drivers license. Why shouldnt it be extended to recreational boaters?

I would say it should be in line with a drivers license, and should have to be renewed. After all it is a motor vehicle, that has no brakes, turns like a cow (usually) and IMO is much easier to get into trouble with since MOST people dont use their boats as often as cars.

But isnt SCUBA MORE licensed than driving? Since in order to rent gear or even go on dives in some areas you must provide proof of certification (your license one might say) and in order to do more advanced things one must then have more advanced certifications.

You arent going to goto jail for not having a scuba 'license' Sure many, probably MOST places would check your card for air fills and such, but there are some places that I'm sure dont. Same with equipment purchases. And worst case, you buy your own compressor! There are many places you can dive and no one really could stop you. Now, I know there are people that drive without proper licenses, but if they get caught, they will have to pay.