From the other side...

[SkipperJohn]

As a boat captain that, until recently, has not been involved in diving I have seen more than my share of abuses from so-called dive boats in my area. I can't count the number of times I have seen dive boat underway/making-way with the dive flag flying high. That flag is a message for ALL vessels that your engine must NOT be running. Including the vessel who is flying the flag!
Another incident that comes to mind I was fishing a wreck when a boat pulled up. It is not uncommon to have a few boats fishing a single wreck. This wreck was a barge and it was fairly large. While the captain was setting his hook I offered to throw him a line so we could form a triangle and stabilize both our positions. He declined then proceeded to set his anchor that it crossed my line then raised a dive flag. Around 20 minutes later (with the fishing totally dead from the diver activity) I needed to leave and could not under maritime law. I needed to start my engines. I called the coastguard...
Dive flag responsibility is for all parties. The flag should be large and visible. It should be supported so that it is distinguishable even in calm winds. If a vessel violates any laws regarding this it should be reported immediately to the coastguard. Be sure to note the vessel color, type, size as well as numbers. The CG wants the physical attributes because makes it easier for them to spot & identify the offending vessel.

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

....I have seen dive boat underway/making-way with the dive flag flying high. That flag is a message for ALL vessels that your engine must NOT be running. Including the vessel who is flying the flag!....

I think this is an excellent topic to post. I agree that there has been a large number of people to represent the divers, but much fewer to represent the boaters.

What happens when it is a live pick up situation? The boat still has divers in the water but needs to go to them? Many places do have live pick up which means the boat engines cannot be turned off. What should happen then according to Coast Guard law? The dive flag cannot come down because there are divers in the water still. I am not a boater so I am interested in a Captain's take on this.

[captndale]

The diver down flag (red and white) has no standing in either international law (COLREGS) or the Inland Rules. The shapes (Ball Diamond Ball) or Alpha Flag do have standing and convey the meaning, "I am engaged in underwater operations and am restricted in the ability to maneuver. Stay well clear and at low speed." Most vessels are required by law and rule to give way and avoid vessels displaying these signals.

The red and white "diver down" flag has whatever significance local state law might give it. In most states boats may not approach within a specified distance of the diver down flag unless engaged in the diving activities. It is also prohibited to display a diver down flag unless people are actually diving. I know of no state in which boats are prohibited from operating their engines while displaying the flag. Vessels may (must) display the flag while tending drifting divers or towing divers. It is common and acceptable for boats to cautiously approach a boat displaying the diver down flag for the purpose of joining in the diving activities. It is also acceptable for a vessel to operate her engines to cautiously leave a site in which there is a vessel still supporting divers underwater.

Dive support vessels may not approach another vessel not engaged in diving activities and then display shapes or flags which force that other vessel to depart or alter course.

The proper way to approach a dive site at which there is another boat already moored or anchored is to approach slowly and hail (by radio, if possible) the boat that is already in position before proceeding in too closely. Find out if there are divers underwater and coordinate all maneuvers with the other captain.

When leaving a dive site if there are other dive boats still there I always try not to engage my screw until I am well clear. I always start my engine before dropping off the mooring or weighing anchor just so I know I will not end up adrift if the engine does not start. I just keep the transmission in neutral until I drift clear.

[SkipperJohn]

you are right, but that still doesn't make it right for a vessel to leave the dock and steam 18 miles with the diver-down flag flying. I've spoken to another boater who was getting fuel with the flag raised. I asked him about it and he told me he always left it up because it was too difficult to attach and remove all the time. This dilutes the meaning of the flag.
Most boats will not display the code-a or even understand what it or the day signals mean. Heck, I used to use my whistle signals when passing until I realized no one had a clue what I was doing and I was just waisting my time. How many vessels at anchor have you ever seen with the proper day signals displayed? (not talking about tankers or commercial vessels which makes up for a small percentage of the traffic in my area). Too often the colregs seems they are for the courts to decide after the fact.
The basic problem is, and what people need to remember, is that in most states all you need to operate a boat is the money to pay for it. No license is required. No training. In too many cases the only training a new boater gets is the sales person showing them where the throttle is and telling them "red, right, return".
The vessel that anchored adjacent me with his anchor line crossing mine showed not an ounce of thought. This was not necessarily a "dive site". In fact it was a fishing site. A barge sunk with funds raised by fishing clubs in the area. I needed my engines to retrieve my anchor. Further with the lines crossed I would have pulled his anchor. Over $200 of ground tackle. Even the CG was at a loss as to handle the situation.
I was not able to leave until the divers returned.
Then the CG, while not able to fine the captain for any wrong doing, went over the boat with a fine tooth comb looking for violations. They let me leave once the divers were on board and accounted for.
Personally I felt like we were kidnapped. Forced to stay against our will. Further had there been a medical or some other emergency on my vessel it would have been that much worse.

[captndale]

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

you are right, but that still doesn't make it right for a vessel to leave the dock and steam 18 miles with the diver-down flag flying.

A careful reading of my post would reveal that I said it is prohibited to fly a diver down flag when no divers are diving.

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

Most boats will not display the code-a or even understand what it or the day signals mean. Heck, I used to use my whistle signals when passing until I realized no one had a clue what I was doing and I was just waisting my time. How many vessels at anchor have you ever seen with the proper day signals displayed?

The fact that other boaters may not understand the meaning of the day shapes, flags or whistle signals does not relieve you of the obligation to use them. Actually, I think that it makes it even more important that you follow all the rules. I always display the proper day shapes for "restricted in the ability to maneuver" as well as an alpha flag and a diver down flag, hoping that other vessels might recognize at least one of them. Oh, and yes, I do also display an anchor ball, as required. Do you?

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

The basic problem is, and what people need to remember, is that in most states all you need to operate a boat is the money to pay for it. No license is required. No training.

I completely agree with you. I have always been in favor of some kind of licensing for recreational boaters, especially the PWC's.

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

The vessel that anchored adjacent me with his anchor line crossing mine showed not an ounce of thought. This was not necessarily a "dive site". In fact it was a fishing site. A barge sunk with funds raised by fishing clubs in the area. I needed my engines to retrieve my anchor.

The vesel's operator was not only inconsiderate but in violation of your rights and lacking in any kind of good seamanship.

As I used the term, a "dive site" is a place where diving activities are taking place. Remember that you can't own a particular location. The fact that a group of fishermen sank that particular wreck does not give them exclusive use of the location. Many wrecks are discovered or sunk by divers, yet they are open to use by fishermen also. We can co-exist with a bit of seamanlike courtesy.

As far as using your engines to retrieve your anchor is concerned, I wasn't there so I do not know the particular circumstances but, often, engines can be used in such situations if care and extreme caution are taken.

[Deefstes]

Originally Posted by SkipperJohn

I needed to leave and could not under maritime law. I needed to start my engines. I called the coastguard...

Just curious, do you know what became of that call to the CG? I mean, how did they respond and was the offending skipper brought to book?

[SkipperJohn]

They first asked me to untie, drift away and leave. I told them I was not about to leave over $200 of ground tackle. Then they sent out 2 kids in a zodiac (probably around 20 y/o... kids to me). They were at a loss and after a brief talk with the other captain they asked me if I could wait a few minutes for the divers to return. At this point it had already been a long wait so a few more minutes didn't seem like much. Once they all were present and accounted for I motored up on my anchor line and raised my hook (with the other vessel using his engines to swing clear of me). I asked the CG if they needed me, and they said no. But they boarded the other vessel and from what we could see they were checking everything they could. They seemed bent on issuing some sort of citation, but not for what I reported. Technically they broke no law. I didn't stay to see the final outcome.

[SkipperJohn]

Here's another situation that resulted in a close call from the other side.
I boat on Long Island. I run a 31foot Rampage with twin diesels. Fully loaded and with over a ton of fuel she pushes the scales close to 9 tons. There's no breaks.
As I leave my port, after close to 6 miles running inland waterways I come to a bridge that is adjacent a popular dive site known as Beach 6th street in Far Rockaway. To make matter worse the bridge and the dive site is near an inlet.
Anyway, on my vessel the helm is located approximately amidships and she sports a very high bow to hold down the seas. While seated at the helm my visibility is limited to nothing closer than 10 to 20 feet. She also has a high tuna tower with outriggers making it impossible for me to navigate under that main span of the bridge at high tide without a lift. However the side spans are a few feet higher because they don't have the lift mechanism. This is my normal passage. It is tight and dark. My beam is 12 foot. the with of the passage is around 25 foot. In a current this leaves little room for error.
On several occasions while running the side span during the early hours of the morning, just after sunup, I have seen a divers black hooded head bobbing just a few feet off my hull with his dive flag a few feet behind him in tow. The problem is I could not possibly see anything until I was past him due to the limited vis of my helm and the bridge itself.
When you are diving you must consider the limitations of the boats.
1- they have no breaks!
2- vis is often limited.
3- a black hood sticking up only 8 inches is difficult to see even under the best of conditions.
4- if you are swimming near the surface and are about to come from an area of limited vis, push your dive flag ahead of you!

I now make it a practice to sound my whistle when coming through the bridge. I only hope any divers in the area know what it means.
atlantic beach bridge, ny - Google Maps
(this is a north-up view, I would be heading westerly just north of the main span, divers enter form the beach to the west on the north bank. if you zoom out you can see the inlet less than 1/2 mile further west)

[jridg]

A couple of items:

1. licensing for boats should be a requirement! I need a licence to fly a plane and drive a car - why the heck don't I need one to drive a boat?

2. At least in FL - if you motor around flying the red/white flag - you are in for a citation. The dive operators around here (Tampa) really take this seriously - which leads me to belive the marine patrol does as well. We always dive flags in shallow water so boaters know where each diver is - exactly - when we finish the dives and head back in, the capt. always makes sure the flags are laying down on the deck - apparently there have been issues in the past.

People simply need to freaking pay attention - on both sides!

[mmerriman]

Everyone needs to be familiar with their state and local regulations with respect to dive flags. I don't know the NY regs, but in MA they are Diver-Down Flag
Persons scuba diving, skin diving, or snorkeling must display a red and white divers flag. Divers or snorkelers must remain within 100 feet of the divers flag. If possible, vessel operators not engaged in the diving operation must stay at least 100 feet from a displayed flag. If not possible, these operators should reduce speed to 3 miles per hour. Two types of flags are used to indicate diving activity.

Divers Flag: A rectangular red flag with a white diagonal stripe, at least 12 x 15 inches in size and constructed of rigidly supported material. This flag must be displayed on a vessel or surface float and must extend a minimum distance of three feet up from the surface of the water.
Alfa Flag: A blue and white International Code Flag A (or Alfa flag), flown from a vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver. This flag indicates that a vessel is involved in a diving activity. The Alfa flag may be displayed in addition to the divers flag but does not replace the divers flag.

Scuba divers and snorkelers should not place a flag in an area already occupied by other boaters or where their diving operation will impede the normal flow of waterway traffic. Divers also should follow all of the water safety rules themselves.

Note - nothing is said federally or in MA that the dive boat must be anchored, not that an approaching vessel MUST not have engines engaged.