Tesla home battery pack and DPV battery pack Technology

[swansoncp]

As i was watching the keynote speech for the new Tesla home battery pack and when they announced the price will be 3000.00 7 kWH battery pack and 3500.00 10 kWh battery pack( 350.00 per KWH) i was thinking why are DPV batteries so flipping expensive?????? i have a Suex be XJOY14 that i want to upgrade to the lithium battery pack, however at a very tall price of around 3000.00 ( AKA 3000.00 per KWH) i think we are paying way too much on old, heavy, outdated batteries i would like to know if any DPV Company plan on using Telsa batteries and their battery Technology???

for me the consumer i would love to have better cheaper batteries for DPVs. i.e. i would like to pay 350.00 per KWH not 3000.00 per KWH

am i the only one that thinks that DPV batteries are way too expensive or am i just crazy

Corey

 

[cool_hardware52]

As i was watching the keynote speech for the new Tesla home battery pack and when they announced the price will be 3000.00 7 kWH battery pack and 3500.00 10 kWh battery pack( 350.00 per KWH) i was thinking why are DPV batteries so flipping expensive?????? i have a Suex be XJOY14 that i want to upgrade to the lithium battery pack, however at a very tall price of around 3000.00 ( AKA 3000.00 per KWH) i think we are paying way too much on old, heavy, outdated batteries i would like to know if any DPV Company plan on using Telsa batteries and their battery Technology???

for me the consumer i would love to have better cheaper batteries for DPVs. i.e. i would like to pay 350.00 per KWH not 3000.00 per KWH

am i the only one that thinks that DPV batteries are way too expensive or am i just crazy

Corey

It's all about volume, and subsidies. The number of DPV batteries produced each year is tiny vs the production volumes for a product potentially useful in any residence.

Add to that Telsa's well proven track record for tapping the public purse for subsidies.

DPV batteries are not trivial. I've designed and produce several different one of the Dive-Xtras scooters.

We can barely do it and we have a very well equipped facility.

It requires CNC mills and lathes, waterjet cutting, fine resistance spot welding, PC board fabrication and assembly, RF welding and the associated fixtures etc. etc. etc.

Any we haven't even discussed chargers or the necessary test apparatus.

Comparing DPV batteries on a $$ / Watt hour basis with a mass produced "power wall" pack is like comparing The cost of Toyota Corolla with a hand build super car…..

Tobin

 

[swansoncp]

and volume is what i was getting at. DPV companies are ordering lithium batteries from battery manufacturers at a super low volume specifically for DPV needs.( thats how it looks to me, i could be wrong ) Why not take Panasonic/ Tesla 18650 battery which would be produced in very very very large volume at a cheap price and then implement Technology in a DPV? I think the DPV Community can benefit from this.

I cannot find anything on tesla's subsidies

also what is the current lithium battery that DPV manufactures using? i.e. what is in the battery pack that deep-sea supply makes for the fury?

I love my DSS backplate :cool3:

corey

 

[cool_hardware52]

and volume is what i was getting at. DPV companies are ordering lithium batteries from battery manufacturers at a super low volume specifically for DPV needs.( thats how it looks to me, i could be wrong ) Why not take Panasonic/ Tesla 18650 battery which would be produced in very very very large volume at a cheap price and then implement Technology in a DPV? I think the DPV Community can benefit from this.

I cannot find anything on tesla's subsidies

also what is the current lithium battery that DPV manufactures using? i.e. what is in the battery pack that deep-sea supply makes for the fury?

I love my DSS backplate :cool3:

corey

I'll try again.

We use *18650's* A fury pack has 120 18650's in it. A DSS Fury pack is a lot more than a pile of cells soldered together………...

These packs require multiple pieces of plastic to be waterjet cut and CNC machined. The top bulkhead alone requires 3 different machining setups on two different CNC machines, 1 3 axis mill and 1 large CNC lathe.

+

An aluminum heat sink to be waterjet cut and CNC machined

+

13 separate pieces of .005 pure nickel sheet to be water jet cut, flattened and polished

+

A battery cutoff board capable of ~50+ amps to produced and assembled and tested

+

A "Skirt" that is die cut and then RF welded on a custom fixture

+

4 Mylar insulators that are die cut

+

The cells have to be preassembled in special fixtures *before* they are ready for Spot welding to the nickel sheet

+

These cell groups have to be assembled into *another* special fixture for final welding

Etc. etc. etc.

Each of these steps requires set up, tooling, skilled operators and QC.

If we were making thousands some or most of these steps could be automated, or different technology could be used. For example injection molding for the battery bulkheads instead of machining. Of course the necessary molds would cost $50,000~$100,000. This is something Tesla can do, but we cannot for the DPV market. This only one example, there are many others. The nickel sheet could be stamped, but only if you pay for the *13* special stamping dies required. Stamping is faster and far cheaper than waterjet cutting, but only if you can amortize the cost of the 13 special, precision stamping dies…...

The cells are a significant part of the final cost, but the engineering, (tooling, dies, programming, fixtures etc.) and actual manufacturing of the current packs is huge cost too.

The good news is large scale users of Li-Ion cells help to drive development of better cells and we all eventually enjoy these advancements.

Tobin

 

[BRT]

You might Google "Tesla Subsidies"

 

[cool_hardware52]

You might Google "Tesla Subsidies"

Humm, I have. Elon Musk has been very successful in arraigning for his products to be developed with and purchased with tax dollars.

Tobin

 

[swansoncp]

Then so what is the split on the batteries vs the pack?

50/50
30/70

 

[cool_hardware52]

Then so what is the split on the batteries vs the pack?

50/50
30/70

Buy 1/2M $ worth of machine tools and spot welders.

Spend a year + developing the design and processes required.

Build a $50K worth of prototypes. Test them, *alot*

Sell some to the general public and provide support.

When you have let me know exactly what the breakdown between cells and other items is.

Also let me know if you still find the current packs to be "expensive" or a relative bargain…..

Tobin

 

[eelnoraa]

....3500.00 10 kWh battery pack( 350.00 per KWH)
Corey

18650 cell is 3.7V. 3400mAh is easily obtainable these days. So per cell is 3.7 x 3.4 = 12.58Wh. To arhieve 1kWh, you need 80 cells. Per cell cost is 350/80 = $4, which isn't cheap at all. Of course, there are other electronic cost and packaging cost. But like Tobin said, it is all about the volumn.

 

[swansoncp]

LOL

I see you are quite quick to throw out your knowledge/ experience in this area , but fall short from telling the truth "hard facts"... I asked about the split in the pack and cells, that’s it. Not how much its costs to build the pack or how much you mark up the battery pack ( I'm guessing %50-%60) to cover "1/2M $ worth of machine tools and spot welders"

So are you saying that most of the cost is in the DPV battery pack is in putting it together? Ie welding the 18650 cells, circuits, shielding, insulators together??

Or are you agreeing with me the batteries are too expensive.

after doing a little research

the 18650 battery costs from 4.50 to 11.30 depending on the power rating and website ( and I'm sure DSS is using the more power full ones)

4.50x120=$540 low end ones
11.30x120=$1356 higher end ones
that to me looks like most of the cost of the fury battery pack.

So let me try this again

My question is and always will be why do the DPV batteries have to be so expensive. When Telsa is coming out with cheap lithium ion batteries.

As to Tesla’s subsidiaries I was talking about earlier. I was only talking about to the consumer not what Tesla is getting from the government. The powerwall pack from telsa is 3500.00 not “it’s 10,000 but with mail in rebate it’s 3500.00” that’s all.


I started this forum because me and my DPV dive buddies complain about the cost of the battery packs. And I wanted to see if anyone else is out there feels the same way. thats it


plus what is your affiliation with DSS?