Argon Setups? How much lift?

[Sunfire85]

After looking through the different forums and such I keep coming across argon setups and am curious about them. From what I understand, Argon setups are used to insulate your dry suit. Is this correct?
Ok, some quick questions, I have two....
1. I am planning on buying a BP/W and for the wing, I plan to dive doubles and eventually will be probably getting into an Argon setup and I am curious about what the lift should be on my wing. I am going with a SS backplate and as noted above plan to dive doubles. I have seen many pictures and GUE and DIR setups where the Argon bottle is attached to one of the double tanks on the side, upside down. With the argon attached, would a 60 LB wing be enough for all of this? Dry suit one case and then wet suit another case minus the Argon naturally.

2. Also, if I decide to start bringing more tanks with me, say with an ArmadilloCCR side mount attached to my BP with two tanks, how much lift would be necessary? Dry suit diving and wet suit separately again.

I understand there is no exact answer to how much lift you will need but I am wondering since I don't want to buy a $300 wing and find out I need to buy another $300 wing to compensate for any tanks attached by a side mount. I'm just curious about whats the wing lift I should be looking at when buying a wing to accommodate all this. Also, if one wing isn't going to suit these cases, what would I need? Thanks.

[divemaster_jim]

Yes Argon is used for insulation,
As far as I know a common consensus is that a 40 to 60 lb bladder is sufficient for most if not all applications,

[rjack321]

Argon bottles really don't change your weighting at all and are irrelevant for wing sizing.

Diving dry, steel tanks work great getting some weight off (since they are negative). 50-60lbs is typical for drysuit applications with heavy undergaments. Since you are in New England I would start in this size range (no bigger).

If diving wet you should be in AL tanks (so you aren't overweighted after wetsuit compression) and probably want a smaller wing for these. 38-45lbs is typical.

I have no idea where you're planning on using sidemount, but how you have mounted the cylinders (side vs. bands) is not really relevant to wing size.

There is no universal wing for all purposes. An oversized wing is a pita, tacoing around the tanks and generally making itself difficult to vent. Get a wing to suit your primary diving environment and learn with that.

[Jim Lapenta]

What rjack says is true. I do myself use steel tanks when diving wet or dry since all I own are steels. I just put together a set of lp 72's for my first doubles set and am confident that they will be fine. I also have the components for a set of 95's but will be getting some time in with the 72's and also taking a tech class before I start diving them together. The 95's will be used strictly for longer dives in less than warm water(Great Lakes, St Lawrence river, Open ocean) where the increased cold and bottom times will necessitate the dry suit. I have never used noe plan on using sidemounts but Again there is no universal wing no matter what some manufacturers say. A wing that would be fine for doubles from Al 80's to lp120's would not work for singles and might be a PIA for sidemount use. If your profile is correct and you have the number of dives you say you do it may be best to get together with some people who dive the types of rigs you want to do before making a purchase. A talk with a good tech instructor would not be out of place either. ALso when you start talking about diving doubles and singles, sidemounts, stages, argon setups,etc , one thing you should not be doing is trying to cut corners. If you cannot afford to get into this type of diving with the proper setups and gear you need to rethink what it is you want to do. I have a wing for singles and a doubles wing. I also have three other jacket style bc's, six regs, a dozen tanks including two argon setups, and alot of other stuff. Transitioning to tech is expensive and better to go into it with your eyes open. Best thing you can do is if you buy a BPW now get one that is suitable for the type of diving you mostly do now. If you do go doubles buy the other wing. You'll most likely still use the other one from time to time. If you go sidemount then you'll need to buy the sidemount harness and yet another wing for this. I knew going in that what I wanted to do. So far after getting certed 2 1/2 years ago I've got over 12 grand in gear and courses and still have a way to go with training and will probably need more gear like another set of 95's, some stage/deco bottles etc. I figure on another 1200-2500 just for training over the next two years for what I want to do. Rec diving can be relatively cheap to get into and do. Tech is a whole nother ball game.

[TSandM]

Sidemount is generally only used for very tight caves, which is a highly advanced application and not something I would even THINK about planning your gear for. Even if you are avid to cave dive, you've got a lot of learning to do (years) before you're ready to do sidemount caves.

Having dived an argon setup for the first time a few weeks ago, I can say that it did not affect my buoyancy significantly at all, and I don't think you have to base the lift of the wing on having an argon tank.

BTW, (unasked advice here), I've been following your posts, and I think you ought to slow down a bit in your thinking and focus on what you're going to be doing for the next year or two. It takes significant time to develop the skills to do technical diving. I have friends who have moved into doubles very early, and they struggle a lot in getting the basic diving skills -- buoyancy, trim, non-silting propulsion, emergency procedures, and stability under task loading. I'm a strong proponent of the idea that you should work in a single tank until you are comfortable, stable, and able to tolerate a significant amount of task loading. THEN add the complications of doubles, trim and stability in double tanks, and valve management to the mix. JMHO.

[Sunfire85]

Thanks for the info about Argon and lift also I appreciate it. TSand, thanks for the concern I appreciate it. yes I am thinking advanced but I like think through what i want to do now and then in the future also. Right now I'm just gonna start with doubles and start diving next month through the summer and then come Aug when I'm making some NJ, MD, and FL dives I will start to get a little bit more technical. I dive with my instructor and yes just being an instructor does not guarantee that your safe but I am aware of my skill level and certainly have no desire to become another statistic in a book. I just enjoy learning about the tech side of diving so when I sit and wonder, "now why do they do this or whats that used for" I can understand the bigger picture. I am very curious and like knowing as much as I can about diving. Actually thinking about all of this and making plans to incorporate it into my diving now vs me actually starting tech diving now are opposites. I'm just going slow, getting the bigger picture and increasing my knowledge.