Junk equipment

[MikeFerrara]

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In my experience dealing with offshore manufacturers, the molds, etc. belong to the customer, not the shop (unless the customer is a rookie who doesn’t know the ropes). The shop may well learn from manufacturing the parts/pieces for their customer, but they aren’t likely to jeopardize business by using the customers molds/toolings making no name knock offs.

Not really. As with most things the real answer is...it depends. It really all depends on what the part is (custom vs off the shelf), what it's used for, who owns the design and the nature of the purchasing agreement. You'll find every type of arrangement under the sun.

Material is usually the most expensive part of any product so the goal is always to reduce material costs. One way to do that is to avoid custom components whenever possible. Instead of designing your product such that it needs an o-ring or a screw that doesn't exist (custom), you design it so that you can use a standard size or type. Now you simply go to the company that makes or distributes them by the millions and negotiate a price for the quantity and frequency you need to buy. In this case the fabricator almost always owns the tooling and they are obviously selling those parts to who ever they want. Even here there are times when you might be pushing the fabricator beyond their capacity to produce so all manor of deals might be worked to get that increase in capacity. I've seen it involve tools, capitol and even building additions.

One other thing does happen and we Americans keep getting duped by the same old thing. An overseas company will approach you because they want to sell your product in their country. But...maybe because of corporate policies, government regulations or customer requirements, they want to build it over there. So, they pay you to tool them up and teach them how to produce the thing. Now they build and sell this product with your name on it and pay you a royalty.

Sometimes these pruducts show up in places they aren't supposed to be and are sold for less than you sell them for. Or...once they are tooled up and know how, they change the design a little and just tell you to go scratch. Or some other variation of this. I wouldn't be at all be surprised if some of this stuff has been done with scuba related products. Not everybody defines ethics the same way. Depending on the wording of the contract, patents involved and who knows what else, you may or may not be able to cost effectively or legaly do anything about it.

I've even seen tools get LOST...even really big tools. Who knows where they really went? What's even more amazing, I've found tools that weren't on any asset list. LOL so who knows where they came from?

I guess I could go on and on here with examples of different situations but probably nobody cares.

[guzzidude]

Wow, I feel like a forum pro now with all this feedback and discussion. lol. I couldn't have imagined the response. Thanks and your welcome. lol. Anyway... When he spoke of "the companies" (didn't name names, ftr) he said it was the "really cheap" (price that is) stuff and we would be able to tell. He DID say the names of respectable companies, like 6 or 7 of the top brands, two of which he sells and eals. I dunno if he was trying to give us a pitch or not, don't think so really. He hasn't mentioned anything about buying regs or other high $ equip. , but they offered to sell everyone who was getting certified snorkel gear, which was priced pretty average. I asked them for the brand and models and looked them up myself. I investigate anything before I purchase it b/c i enjoy the research, plus I don't like spending money on crap. Me buying this stuff, regs, BC, etc, is all on my own accord and I researched and asked questions about this stuff too. But yes, the story really peaked my interest b/c yes, (quoting many) the liability of a faulty, "may cause death", product incident is rediculous, so that's why I thought I would bring it up incase this was true. I am really glad I posted this. I just hope this doesn't float back to bite me in the kiester!

[PhilEllis]

This is an interesting thread. Does anyone have a factual take on why the major brands of SCUBA feel so negatively about on-line sales? I can’t think of another industry that so strictly adheres to a policy of not honoring warrantees for anything bought from an on-line vendor.

I have several very good ideas.....in fact, some are more than ideas....they are REASONS quoted directly by various executives of the major scuba companies.....

1. The scuba companies have a unique distribution base. If you look at all of the dealers selling any particular line, you will find that the to 10% of their dealers account for about 85% of their total volume. So, the remaining 90% of the dealers are selling very low volume and, therefore, must make very high margins. They have to insist on high retail prices to "protect" the low volume dealers. This usually results in a desire to limit online sales, because at present, online sales are very price driven in the scuba industry.

2. Online sales very quickly creates LARGE dealers (scubatoys, scuba.com, 123scuba, etc). Large dealers have more higher sales, which results in larger profits, which results in more buying power, which results in higher profits, etc. The scuba companies don't really want INDIVIDUAL, LARGE players. Large players are a gigantic legal threat when they attempt to enforce their mostly illegal policies.

3. The executives of the major scuba companies typically grew up in the company or in the industry. They are baby boomers. They prospered (rose to the top) in a system that did not include the internet. People who prosper in a particular system are often loathe to change that system.

Anyway, my opinion.

Additional Note: The often quoted idea that they love gray-market distribution because they don't have to warranty the product, thereby saving the warranty costs, is a red herring. Warranty cost (recalls exempted) is absurdly low for scuba companies. That simply isn't much of an issue.

Phil Ellis

[MikeFerrara]

Hey Mike. What sort of products and components are you mentioning here? I have been in manufacturing 30 years, and can't recall seeing this practice. Maybe I can learn something here.

Which practice? Sorting?
With some electronic/electrical components it might be part of the normal manufacturing process for tolerance ratings. For instance, some types of resistors.

As far as components? I've seen it quit a few times with a variety of electrical/electronic components relays, transformers, inductors, thermistors and I don't know what else. I haven't worked as much with mechanical components but one spring we used comes to mind.

As far as products...mostly automotive where development times are short, volume is sometimes pretty low and product life can be short.

I've seen this done intentionally but I've also seen it come about as the result of a mistake. As long as a high enough percentage of their regular production meets your spec, the yield of the sorting oporation is acceptable. Often, with off the shelf components, you don't get to specify capability indices so that's a non issue.

Situations like this sound like quality control issues but it's something that usually came in development and this was the design/manufacturing/purchasing solution chosen by the all knowing powers that be.

But alas I am now free of such concerns because all these places have since packed up and moved off the Mexico.

[jpsexton]

...what I don't understand is why the LDS or any employee there would risk losing a long term relationship with a customer that is more valuable than selling only a single set of gear for around a grand to a "newbie" only to have the customer later feel that they may have been ripped off.

I really don't get that either. It seems to me if you treated everyone fair and priced things competativly you would end up with many more loyal repeat customers. Surely repeat customers are more valuable in the long run than the poor Newbie that you make a good lick on but never see again because they had such a bad case of buyers regret.

[Ronald K]

Not BS, I have been offered poseidon extream regs at a dive show in germany by some couple with their own stand. The sold them without any guarantees, no questions asked, but for half the price. When confronting the poseidon dealers with this , they told me I should not buy them, they didn't know where the parts came from, reckoned the couple puts them together themselves. Anyhow the offered regs were real, but something smells...
Always ask If you can get original documents with your equipment, check if the sellers are dealers. Ask for warranty papers. At least you know you have done everything possible to buy regs that have passed at least the manufacturer's quality checks. I know it's hard to resist buying thoise cheap regs, I was looking to buy two for my double 12l set. At the normal price that's a huge expense. Anyway I bought Aqualungs. Top regs for less money. And cheaper service. And, what's most important, they're put together at the aqualung controlled facilities like they should.

[akbpilot]

Hey Mike. What sort of products and components are you mentioning here? I have been in manufacturing 30 years, and can't recall seeing this practice. Maybe I can learn something here.

First time I saw this was 1978 at Bendix in Dayton, Ohio. They were showing a system they developed in conjunction with Fords automated assembly division. It involved sorting finished wrist pins, and mating them with like sized pistons and connecting rods.