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I've been diving for a couple of years now, but always rented equipment and now want to buy my own. I've noticed that finding substantive reviews on equipment is difficult. Usually its just marketing hype or very superficial comments.
I've also noticed that when in-depth equipment reviews that aren't 100% supportive are posted on boards and websites, it seems to generate an attack-dog response from the OEMs. Scott Zeagle is one example, who seems very aggressive in defending his products, regardless of issues. In fairness, his products generally get very good reviews, and I'm personally interested in his Stilletto BC. It isn't my express intent to single him out, but several of his responses to postings on here and other websites have really been nuclear in nature.
I've also determined that there is complete OEM control over product pricing - no seasonal sales, no discounts for large total sales - nothing at all except on discontinued merchandise that's been approved by OEMs, or accessory items such as clothing, luggage, etc. I'm all for capitalism, but that's not capitalism, that's a cartel. The overwhelming majority of current major products (BCs, regs/octos, gauges/computers) are not available anywhere at prices other than what the OEM has set.
Yes, I'm aware of what specialty sports equipment cost - I ski (both kinds), shoot/hunt, golf, have motorcycles (both kinds), camp/hike and own a ton of equipment. But I can always find some kind of deal on what I want if I look hard enough.
The total price control on scuba equipment has kept me from buying my own so far. I'm just wondering what the marketplace perspective is on these issues?
PS - this is my second post on this subject (I posted yesterday) and the first thread never showed up on the board. Hmmm.
Reviews in magazines are occasionally a little useful but only when combined with other sources, like here. I suppose it does take more work to research scuba gear than some other stuff, c'est la vie.
I've seen attack dog responses from some people attached to certain brands (or places), but never anything but reasonable responses from Scott Zeagle and certainly nothing I'd describe as "nuclear". (and I'm no Zeagle defender, the couple Zeagle products I've tried I didn't like.)
As far as complete OEM control of pricing, that is true of some brands but not all. Some people avoid the brands that have those policies.
Looks like you posted on this a couple years ago - Equipment advice wanted!
but don't see anything from yesterday. There are hiccups sometimes, I wouldn't assume something dark and devious is going on if that's what you're thinking. If you write a longish post, there's something to be said for copying it before you hit Post in case the computer gets hungry...
I've been diving for a couple of years now, but always rented equipment and now want to buy my own. I've noticed that finding substantive reviews on equipment is difficult. Usually its just marketing hype or very superficial comments.
I've also noticed that when in-depth equipment reviews that aren't 100% supportive are posted on boards and websites, it seems to generate an attack-dog response from the OEMs. Scott Zeagle is one example, who seems very aggressive in defending his products, regardless of issues. In fairness, his products generally get very good reviews, and I'm personally interested in his Stilletto BC. It isn't my express intent to single him out, but several of his responses to postings on here and other websites have really been nuclear in nature.
I've also determined that there is complete OEM control over product pricing - no seasonal sales, no discounts for large total sales - nothing at all except on discontinued merchandise that's been approved by OEMs, or accessory items such as clothing, luggage, etc. I'm all for capitalism, but that's not capitalism, that's a cartel. The overwhelming majority of current major products (BCs, regs/octos, gauges/computers) are not available anywhere at prices other than what the OEM has set.
Yes, I'm aware of what specialty sports equipment cost - I ski (both kinds), shoot/hunt, golf, have motorcycles (both kinds), camp/hike and own a ton of equipment. But I can always find some kind of deal on what I want if I look hard enough.
The total price control on scuba equipment has kept me from buying my own so far. I'm just wondering what the marketplace perspective is on these issues?
PS - this is my second post on this subject (I posted yesterday) and the first thread never showed up on the board. Hmmm.
Control over pricing is less common than control over ADVERTISING a price. Unfortunately, several manufacturers are tightening their minimum advertised price policies to such an extent that they are slowly morphing into real price control policies. As internet retailers only have advertising to transfer their price information, this will create quite a squeeze on internet retailers. I assume this is partly the objective of the scuba companies....very short sighted, but they move ahead.
It is interesting.....just yesterday I made a post on our blog about this very subject. If interested, take a look at the link below. I would also love it if you posted your thought and comments about the post. More than anything else, a large volume of comments on a blog like our, directly from consumers, can do more to temper these polices than any other action I can imagine. Thanks.
I thought your "Over-Reaching MAP Policies" commentary was right on target. You obviously have considerable industry experience, which I do not, and I thought your comments reflected a well-reasoned, balanced perspective.
Simply put, I'm just a guy that likes all kinds of sports and has spent considerable time shopping and buying a wide variety of equipment. I've got a pretty good sense of how markets should work, and that combined with common sense and a long history of typical purchaser experiences tells me that pricing on most name-recognized scuba equipment is controlled to the extent that the market is functioning like a cartel, and not a free enterprise process.
You are correct in stating that internet retailers struggle under this arrangement. Just as one example, major OEMs sell their products to established internet retailers, and then refuse to honor their own warranties under the claim that the seller isn't an authorized dealer. I spent several hours yesterday trying to get prices on a custom, color-paneled Zeagle BC. I went through an LDS, and then tried e-mail links on the Zeagle website (none of which worked), then called Zeagle and got directed first to their recommended LDS (which happened to be the one that I had been trying to get prices from), then directed to their regional sales rep (the phone wasn't answered, left message), tried to e-mail them as well and couldn't get the e-mails delivered, called back to Zeagle and found out the entire Zeagle server system is suffering from problems. What a hassle....
My point is only that too much control doesn't serve the marketplace well, it just creates problems which manifest themselves in peculiar ways. Every LDS, OEM or internet retailer wants to make a reasonable profit on quality goods and services - fine. I'm a commited capitalist and all for supporting the process, but what I've observed is overly controlling and protective, thereby creating unfair market advantage... its certainly not free enterprise at work.
I'll look forward to continued input from you and others on this subject. I think it's an important topic, and warrants substantial discussion. I'm always willing to learn, and even to eat some crow if I need to. I'm more than a little surprised that the issue hasn't been more fully exposed already.
I'm more than a little surprised that the issue hasn't been more fully exposed already.
It's certainly "exposed" on this board at any rate, it's a frequent topic of very long discussions. Might not see so many very recent threads on it as it's been so thoroughly beaten to death people have taken a break from it.
There are sales, but you have to keep an eye out for them or know when they come up. For example, in the So Cal area predominately (stores in Arizona, NV and Nor Cal), Sport Chalet has a Used Sale/Sidewalk sale they promote - sort of like a consignment sale sometime around June I think. They also do a big Tent sale at some stores in mid-August where they sell of a lot of prior year stuff. I do not know of other LDS sales and such, but if you are in no rush to buy, but keep your eyes and ears open, sales are out there.
Also, you can sometimes bargain with the local shops.
I have owned 3 motorcycles - 2 of them new and on those new ones, the only real bargaining I had available was when the new year models were coming out. Otherwise, it was a little here, little there type of thing.
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This member has said "Thank you." to scubapatton for this useful post:
I thought your "Over-Reaching MAP Policies" commentary was right on target. You obviously have considerable industry experience, which I do not, and I thought your comments reflected a well-reasoned, balanced perspective.
Simply put, I'm just a guy that likes all kinds of sports and has spent considerable time shopping and buying a wide variety of equipment. I've got a pretty good sense of how markets should work, and that combined with common sense and a long history of typical purchaser experiences tells me that pricing on most name-recognized scuba equipment is controlled to the extent that the market is functioning like a cartel, and not a free enterprise process.
You are correct in stating that internet retailers struggle under this arrangement. Just as one example, major OEMs sell their products to established internet retailers, and then refuse to honor their own warranties under the claim that the seller isn't an authorized dealer. I spent several hours yesterday trying to get prices on a custom, color-paneled Zeagle BC. I went through an LDS, and then tried e-mail links on the Zeagle website (none of which worked), then called Zeagle and got directed first to their recommended LDS (which happened to be the one that I had been trying to get prices from), then directed to their regional sales rep (the phone wasn't answered, left message), tried to e-mail them as well and couldn't get the e-mails delivered, called back to Zeagle and found out the entire Zeagle server system is suffering from problems. What a hassle....
My point is only that too much control doesn't serve the marketplace well, it just creates problems which manifest themselves in peculiar ways. Every LDS, OEM or internet retailer wants to make a reasonable profit on quality goods and services - fine. I'm a commited capitalist and all for supporting the process, but what I've observed is overly controlling and protective, thereby creating unfair market advantage... its certainly not free enterprise at work.
I'll look forward to continued input from you and others on this subject. I think it's an important topic, and warrants substantial discussion. I'm always willing to learn, and even to eat some crow if I need to. I'm more than a little surprised that the issue hasn't been more fully exposed already.
I am an unabashed free-trader. I personally prefer to go up against my competitors, without restrictions on advertising, price, or any other element of my business. I fully understand the need for specific price advertising restrictions, and I don't fight those programs, even if I might personally disagree with them.
The issue that worries me now is the appearance of full price controls as a result of super restrictive advertising policies. In addition, no manufacturer is able to control indirect discounts. If they can't control them, then there is no "fairness" or no "level playing field"....their professed reason for having these policies in the first place.
Take a moment to make a comment on my blog thread about this. Blogs get an amazing amount of attention, and reader comments simply elevate that attention. Maybe the RIGHT people will read that view, realize that many consumers agree, and start to make some changes.
I'm new to the sport and a complete neophyte on this board, so I'll take your word for the issue being fully exposed here. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have had much impact in the marketplace. I'm already feeling pretty bruised just from my own limited experiences.
I guess I'll just have to go diving to get over the emotional trama.
You can also find used or "near-new" equipment on CraigsList or in the classifieds sections of boards like this one a lot of times.
Diving is a pricey hobby, but if you limit your "new" interests or desired "upgrades", you can still have a blast without going overboard. For example, Tec diving, drysuits, photography, rebreathers, etc are all pricey "upgrades". They create new aspects of diving, but you can still be in the water at a fraction of the cost, still enjoy yourself, and still grow with the hobby...
