Securing backup light.

[Rainer]

Reliance has no place in technical diving.

Bollocks.

If I didn't believe there were situations that I couldn't get out of without team support, I'd start solo diving. Instead, I recognize that a competent buddy offers me solutions to problems I otherwise couldn't handle alone (regardless of approach, additional gear, or preparation). Reliance is nothing more than acceptance that factors in the world can eventually overwhelm what you alone can overcome. This certainly isn't an excuse for slacking or not being as (reasonably) prepared as possible. The line in the sand where YOU dispense with reliance is simply the demarcation of what situations will prove fatal should life conspire in exceeding it.

Only a fool would state we are not reliant on certain gear, training, conditions, procedures, teammates, responses, instincts, and good judgment when doing "technical dives".

[down4fun]

I have been thinking which would be more dangerous; 6 inches of bungie on your front strap getting caught on something or dropping your backup light in a wreck or cave and having it fall into a crack. You could cut the bungie. Without a backup light you might be screwed in the dark. You better have a buddy nearby.

If you are using a back up light in a hogarthian set up it is because you already had a failure of your primary light and would be making your exit from said wreck or cave. You have two back up lights in case of another failure or I guess in your example you should drop one and not be able to retrieve it.

You are a new diver so let me share with you the possibilities in the technical world. You are 185ft down making a penetration run into a wreck for more than 200 linear feet. It's a team of three. Most of the penetration run is single file, full of hazards and pieces of metal just waiting to get caught on something. And just the propulsion of the divers thru the water causes rust to rain down from the ceiling, and that's using the most effective finning techniques. By the time the team turns visibility is less than a foot and you are doing a zero-viz blind exit with your hand on the guideline to get out. IF you get caught on something you cannot see to get it loose and there is no room for your buddy to come and help you. Your best defense is be as streamline as possible and without any danglies or loops of bugie sticking out to get hooked as you exit. This is no open water reef dive. this is real world technical diving and the risks are real. And the techniques are born out of experience. So people get quite passionate when someone new comes in and spouts off with misinformation that could get someone hurt or killed.

I took a seminar on Intro to Tech at IVS. Avery was the instructor. I had a loop of bungie around my neck and did not die.

Bill

The bungie on the backup regulator around your neck is of a specific length to help avoid entrapment.

[PfcAJ]

Its the little things that get you. Don't settle for less than perfection in your gear, the rewards are worth the effort.

[DevonDiver]

Bollocks.

Only a fool would state we are not reliant on certain gear, training, conditions, procedures, teammates, responses, instincts, and good judgment when doing "technical dives".

It's a good job that no-one stated that then.

Of course, if you do insist to quote me out of context....

Diving within a team is one thing... reliance on others is another thing. Reliance has no place in technical diving.

Diving within a team is one thing. It's valid and unarguably sound.

Reliance on others is another thing. This illustrates the need for individual proficiency, in addition to team proficiency. A good team is built around good individuals.

Reliance has no place in technical diving. Dependency and trust in others. A mindset. A good principle and a nice emotional 'comfort blanket' to have when diving in extreme circumstances. But really...when push comes to shove...and death is knocking on the door...how much dependency should you really give to another?

1. re·li·ance

   noun /riˈlīəns/ reliances, plural Dependence on or trust in someone or something - the farmer's reliance on pesticides A person or thing on which someone depends

Maybe it is more applicable to caves... but dependency on others in a deep open-water or wreck environment is not a bulletproof contingency. Separation is an issue and should be considered. There's a large number of factors that can cause separation in those environments, which are heedless of the experience, training or philosophy of the divers' concerned. If a diver's problem-management solutions end with the final step of 'wait for buddy to intervene and support' then they could potentially find themselves in a scenario where all their contingency planning is defunct.

Any diver who says they won't ever get separated is fooling themselves. In a contest between human ego and the power of Mother Ocean, there will only be one winner.

[bj139]

If you are using a back up light in a hogarthian set up it is because you already had a failure of your primary light and would be making your exit from said wreck or cave. You have two back up lights in case of another failure or I guess in your example you should drop one and not be able to retrieve it.

You are a new diver so let me share with you the possibilities in the technical world. You are 185ft down making a penetration run into a wreck for more than 200 linear feet. It's a team of three. Most of the penetration run is single file, full of hazards and pieces of metal just waiting to get caught on something. And just the propulsion of the divers thru the water causes rust to rain down from the ceiling, and that's using the most effective finning techniques. By the time the team turns visibility is less than a foot and you are doing a zero-viz blind exit with your hand on the guideline to get out. IF you get caught on something you cannot see to get it loose and there is no room for your buddy to come and help you. Your best defense is be as streamline as possible and without any danglies or loops of bugie sticking out to get hooked as you exit. This is no open water reef dive. this is real world technical diving and the risks are real. And the techniques are born out of experience. So people get quite passionate when someone new comes in and spouts off with misinformation that could get someone hurt or killed.

The bungie on the backup regulator around your neck is of a specific length to help avoid entrapment.

Great example show above, down4fun. In my first post I was addressing the OP question quoted below:

"I am an OW diver and only use my light to look under rocks etc, but without some sort of lanyard I would have thought there is a fairly high risk of dropping it, no? Problematic if I were diving a wall and the bottom was too deep."

down4fun and Devondiver, I agree with you 100% for the type of diving you are doing. If I were diving in wrecks or caves I would follow your direction.

Bill

[rivers]

Yes, but you are missing the point. In a hog set-up, the basic configuration of gear does not change, no matter the type of diving (whether OW reef dive, cave, wreck, tech, etc). It doesn't matter the type of dive, basic kit orientation will be the same, including how back-up lights are stowed and attached. It is a system that works for all types of diving. So yes, to reiterate other posters, your response was not appropriate in this forum, because it is not a solution for someone diving a hogarthian set-up.

I was addressing the OP question quoted below:

"I am an OW diver and only use my light to look under rocks etc, but without some sort of lanyard I would have thought there is a fairly high risk of dropping it, no? Problematic if I were diving a wall and the bottom was too deep."

down4fun and Devondiver, I agree with you 100% for the type of diving you are doing.

Bill

[ferris213]

I was addressing the OP question quoted below:

"I am an OW diver and only use my light to look under rocks etc, but without some sort of lanyard I would have thought there is a fairly high risk of dropping it, no? Problematic if I were diving a wall and the bottom was too deep."

With all due respect you have kind of answered this one yourself. The 'question' you quoted isn't a question, it is a statement.

The question I had in the first post of this thread was 'how do hogarthian divers prevent dropping their light'

It was answered clearly within one or two posts.

For the record, I am far from a hogarthian purist, but I do have a lot of respect for the time, effort and personal cost that went into developing the mindset, and where I can apply it to my diving, I try to.

[bj139]

Yes, you are right. I did explain above I was just searching for backup light and did not notice it gave me a hogarthian thread. I am glad that anyone reading this thread understands that what I said is not hogarthian. Is there someplace on the internet where the hogarthian rules are clearly stated? Other scubaboard threads gave me the wrong idea of what a hogarthian configuration is.

Thanks,
Bill

[ferris213]

There is a sticky thread at the top of the hogarthian forum that talks about the gear set up, but I don't know about the rules being stated. I'm sure the more experienced divers could help out more with that.

Good diving,
Pat

[LGH]

Excuse me if I am rude jumping into this long running thread, but getting back to the basic question, I have one rule I try to always follow in order to not do dumb and dangerous things:

Dive gear that you can afford to lose. It's safer that way. If you drop your backup light, curse or shrug but don't do anything stupid to get it back. Just bring out your other backup and/or abort the dive.