Is yelling at students OK??

[DiveBandit]

First - let me say that I am a PADI OWSI. I am certified to basic cave dive, but I am not a cave instructor.

The Incident - I went up to little river with my son (also basic cave certified) to do a cave dive. It was going to be a simple few hundred feet in and out. My son was going to run a line to the gold line and lead the dive on this one as I usually lead and thought it would be nice and good experience to let him lead for a change.

we were in the water going over final check lists, had just done a bubble check and a cave instructor surfaced with a student. This instructor is somewhat known, and he is from the Tampa area, but the name is not important. Once on the surface he proceeded to rip his student apart verbally. This went on long enough, and pissed me off bad enough, that I really considered interupting him and ripping into him. His tiraid was so bad that it unnerved my son who in a low voice asked me to please lead our dive.

So here is my statement and question. In my opinion this instructor was way out of line with his conduct. He was being paid by the student to be there, not the other way around. Furthermore if a students diving was that bad, why did the instructor take him to Little river and not somewhere like Ginnie, where bouyancy issues won't cause as much damage (in the areas used for training) to the cave. Additionally, know it or not, he put my dive team's safety in jeopardy by unnerving my buddy.

My questions. Am I off base here?? As I said, I am an OWSI, not a cave instructor.
If you feel yelling at students is ok, I'd like to hear the reasoning. I have an open mind, maybe I just don't get it...

[SteveAD]

Disturbing the peace is never OK. Some instructors can get pretty brutal in a debrief and there may be times when it is appropriate, particularly in high risk trainining (don't want to sugar coat where a mistake can get you AND YOUR BUDDY killed). But if that brutal debrief is conducted at a volume that it disturbs folks who are not in the class there is something wrong.

[knotical]

It’s OK to yell IF AND ONLY IF the yelling fixes a problem that has currently placed someone in immediate danger. e.g.:

RUN! THAT BOULDER IS FALLING!

Otherwise, not.

[Ber Rabbit]

I agree with SteveAD, brutal debriefs should be done at a low volume. Keeping your voice so low the person you are speaking to has to nearly hold their breath to hear you forces them to listen to the message rather than just tune out shouting. That level of training is going to have more brutal debriefs than open water training simply because the environment is so unforgiving. Some students can be flippant about the dangers, we don't know what the student attitude was in the class...he may well have deserved the verbal whipping. It didn't need to be loud enough for others to overhear. Raking someone over the coals should be done in private if it needs to be done.
Ber

[Cheekymonkey]

Knotical, I'm with you on that, it had better save you from impending doom if you are going to yell at a student. Or give any verbal bashing in public.

[String]

Depends on the student. Some people will respond better to that than gentle persuasion.

At a more advanced level if someone has done something ridiculous and dangerous then i dont see a problem.

[Lead_carrier]

. This instructor is somewhat known, and he is from the Tampa area, but the name is not important. Once on the surface he proceeded to rip his student apart verbally.

...

Unfortunately some of the "known" instructors seem to read too many of their own press clippings, and from my experiences it is usually in the technical and cave areas. I even had a "known" cave instructor tell some of my OW students, behind my back, to not pay attention to what I have been saying about low pressure tanks, it was perfectly fine to fill them to 3500psi.

Getting on to a student extremely sternly, especially in a cave situation, is totally understandable. Too keep it going is, in all likelyhood, uncalled for. If I need to dress someone down in a class, and I have. I will pull them off privately and when I finish, they KNOW they've been dressed down. And it ends there. If their behavior continues, then they are politely excused from attending any more classes.

[Dive-aholic]

Okay, first you say this:

Once on the surface he proceeded to rip his student apart verbally. This went on long enough, and pissed me off bad enough, that I really considered interupting him and ripping into him. His tiraid was so bad that it unnerved my son who in a low voice asked me to please lead our dive.

then this:

If you feel yelling at students is ok, I'd like to hear the reasoning.

Was this instructor actually yelling at the student, or was he "ripping him apart verbally"? Those are 2 different things. Screaming at the top of your lungs is not professional and shouldn't be tolerated by anyone. Telling someone they had a poor performance in no uncertain terms is definitely acceptable. There were a couple of times during my cave course I wished my instructor was yelling...that way I wouldn't have to be so close to him just to hear what he was saying!


Onto this:

Additionally, know it or not, he put my dive team's safety in jeopardy by unnerving my buddy.

Then you should have called the dive. Doing a cave dive knowing your safety is at risk isn't very smart. Maybe your basic cave instructor should have ripped you apart...

[marinediva]

I find this an interesting thread. Currently I work as a trainer not just in diving but full time instructing Hospitality skills. I must admit I can yell, and as ex defence I can yell very loud.
I use yelling to encourage, motivate, alert, and praise. Never abuse.

Yelling can apply pressure on people, it can assist in getting people to a zone.
I often loose my voice in a rescue course because of yelling. Not abuse but encouragement.
It is my belief that some people will never respond to it, whether positive or negative.
For me it is just a communication tool, and should be used accordingly.

[Rick Murchison]

... a cave instructor surfaced with a student. ... he proceeded to rip his student apart verbally... In my opinion this instructor was way out of line with his conduct...

When a student has done something particularly dangerous, harmful or inconsiderate, "ripping" may not only be acceptable, but appropriate. However... as tempting as it may be to get to it as soon as you can, it is never, ever, appropriate to do it in public. (save a case of imminent danger like a need to get back down to a deco stop NOW)
If I feel there's a dire need for immediate reinforcement - rubbing the puppy's nose in the poop while the act is still fresh in his mind - and we're still in earshot of other folks, then I may ask "Well, Joe, how'd you feel about that dive?" Usually this will at least get the worst to the surface, and, it allows the student to be in charge of what he/she's willing to have aired in front of others. But once on the surface, there's just nothing that can't wait until a private debriefing.

... he put my dive team's safety in jeopardy by unnerving my buddy...

Who put the dive team's safety in jeopardy???? It wasn't him! He may have rattled your buddy (though in the final analysis a person's reaction to events around them is a personal choice and under their own control - and therefore their own responsibility - but that's an entirely different discussion for another day), but the decision to allow that rattling to become a safety issue wasn't his, was it?

... If you feel yelling at students is ok, I'd like to hear the reasoning...

When in a commercial instructor/student relationship, the student is paying the instructor to provide information in an effective format - i.e. in a way that the necessary information can be understood. The verbal presentation part of the process is usually done in a fairly straightforward manner in a normal tone of voice, but sometimes, with some people and under some circumstances, a different tone may be needed. Usually that's a softer-than-normal tone, but occasionally, there are folks who respond best to a good hearty shout!
The real key is figuring out who's who, and when what's best
Rick