I received this today. Excellent question I think.

[Jim Lapenta]

I was in a shop and a fellow came in that was interested in doing his DM. He was a younger man maybe 20-25 years old, quite cocky and had just done his advanced and rescue and first 35 dives in Honduras, and had a fist full of money. The fellow was insistent that he would be an excellent DM and that he would be able to do the course in 3 weeks when the fastest that someone from that shop did the program was 5 weeks. He then bought a DM course pack, and went on his way.

I was quite shocked by the arrogance of this fellow, but was more interested in the conversation that followed after the fellow had left. I was speaking to a group of the instructors after he left that were there and there was two main reactions. The first was that the fellow would not make a very good DM as he didn't have the right mindset, and that he would most likely not make it very far through the training before giving up.

This came as a bit of a shock to me, as they were willing to train him in the first place. I don't know if this was the result of the fellow's insisting that he would do the program, or if the instructors were happy taking his money and watching him fail.

I then decided to speak to the owner of the shop about that conversation later in the day privately and he said two things about it. First that there was always going to be a small group of students that are difficult to deal with and that you would have to decline their business because of their attitude. However, this was if you could determine if they had this attitude before they started the course. The second thing the owner had to say was that sometime there was a small group of students that were obviously not cut out to be DM's (or divers for that matter), because of their attitude or ability or some other thing, but managed to make it part way through the course before it was noticed. With these students he said that it was easier to cut losses and just pass them through and let the world figure out they are going to be bad DM's.

Is this a common attitude towards such people that are interested in DM courses?

Do any of you have similar experiences with potential DM candidate students?

[Wookie]

I think that there is a third option that you haven't presented. I've found that some of the folks I've learned the most from are cocky, self-assured, abrasive, full of confidence, and real assholes. He is sure that he can do a 3 week course where others take 5 weeks. If teamed with the right instructor, he may very well make a superb divemaster, learn a bit of humility, and surprise all of the "jocks" at the dive shop. I tend to teach doctors, lawyers, and boat captains. There is no one with a worse attitude than a doctor, lawyer, or boat captain learning to dive, they already know everything about everything.

[roturner]

Two thoughts come to mind.

1) Everyone deserves a chance and if he has what it takes he will pass. If not, he will not pass. That's the way the courses work. You'll always get some who have unrealistic expectations of the course, or of themselves. Those expectations can often be dealt with in the course.

2) If you buy any product at any store, they generally don't care if you use it, throw it away or blow it up in your backyard for amusement. It's your product. You bought it. I think it was Salman Rushdie who said he didn't care if anyone read his books as long they bought them.... Busines is what business is.

R..

[Jim Lapenta]

Since you asked here are my views on this. Number one is there are some people I will refuse to train for any level. Besides the obvious of fear of water, can't swim, want to get done in a week or two, etc., I also look at the the person's personality, attitude, and judgment. If somone comes in with an "I want to do something dangerous", " I am the best at whatever I do", I don;t need all that extra stuff just teach me to go underwater", they will not be training with me. That goes for OW even.

If they start class and demonstrate a reluctance or refusal to follow rules, disregard safety protocols, or put other students at risk with such behavior they get one very short and to the point warning and then they are gone if they do it again. No refund, no coming back, just goodbye. This is spelled out in the learning agreement every student signs.

When it comes to pro level training there is no excuse for allowing someone who would reflect badly on the instructor or shop to even begin training. Now maybe this guy will get a good talking to before they actually start training him to see if they can adjust his attitude. IF they can't then a prudent move would be to refund his money and tell him he needs to grow up a bit and then maybe come back. This one of the reasons I think DM candidates should be selected rather than just accepted if they have the required dives and precourse training. THey should also be compensated and charged a token amount for training. If the shops, and yes, instructors had to do this they would be much more selective in who gets in, let alone through. This would also go a long way to weeding out those who should not be teaching new divers and feel that shortcuts and less standards are acceptable.

[roturner]

I can understand what you're say, Jim, but on the other hand, you're *assuming* that the baggage they carry in the front door with them will be the same baggage they have when they're done.

A lot of learning (and/or personal growth) can happen between those two points in time if he gets the right coaching. This is what I think Wookie was trying to tell you.

And he may also flop out of the course.... but you just never know when you see them walk in the door how the chips are going to fall.

R..

[roturner]

There is no one with a worse attitude than a doctor, lawyer, or boat captain learning to dive, they already know everything about everything.

It's a "phase"... LOL Like my 11 year old.

R..

[Rick Murchison]

...There is no one with a worse attitude than a doctor, lawyer, or boat captain learning to dive, they already know everything about everything.

Me: "You're late."
Doc: "I'm a doctor."
Me: "Ok, Doctor, what time shall we start the class next week; I and the rest of the class will plan it around *your* schedule."
After that little conversation it's amazing how doctors can suddenly be on time.
Amazing.
Rick

[japan-diver]

I think judging someone on there attitude coming in is a bit unfair and arrogant on the part of any instructor. I also do not put timelines on my professional classes - I tell them what they need to accomplish and then ask them how long they think it will take- I then give them my idea of how long it will take and then we get to work. Evaluations and feedback are given on how they are doing throughout the course - my estimates for time are usually more accurate than the clients but sometimes a client will surprise you.

[Rick Murchison]

I think judging someone on there attitude coming in is a bit unfair and arrogant...

Hmmm... I'd propose that the failure to judge someone's attitude could be very dangerous, both to the student and to your business.

Rick

[japan-diver]

Hmmm... I'd propose that the failure to judge someone's attitude could be very dangerous, both to the student and to your business.

Rick

I should have explained a bit more- dismissing them outright on first impression is what I was thinking. Attitude/judgment is an important part of all professional levels but as professionals ourselves we need to sometimes look past our first impressions and believe that we can teach our students a bit beyond what we saw in our first impression. Some of my best DM's and Instructor candidates started out a bit over eager and over confident in their abilities.