hid woes: 10w /18w / 21w

[Spoon]

guys after doing some wreck diving over the weekend i am set on getting and investing on a hid can light. was originally set on a 10w but aftr seeing 2 of my buds with 10w hids i was dissapointed. the intensity was just as bright as my handheld led but was just wider. i wasnt impressed at all. when we dove the reef it looked pitiful during the day.

i am still 50/50 on what manufacturer to go with. i want the salvo bad eveything in my body is telling me to get the salvo but my gut tells me to get the halcyon. im well versed on the miller/halcyon drama and honestly i dont quite care. im just faced with the dilemma of servicing should the court case and warranty turn against me in the future. for short if the case was resolved and i could get my lights serviced id get the salvo if not then its halcyon

Anyway that aside why are the salvo 18w and 21w, 24w all the same prices? im thinking 18w is good enough for wreck and night diving but if the 21w and 24w are the same should i just get the 21 w or 24w? pros and cons? 4.5amp batt is to short a burntime im thinking of the 9amp. best value for money. also is focusable much better than fixed? whcih gives a better quality light 18w or 21w. i wanna be the brightest son of a gun in the water but dont wanna be overkill.

also why is it that the kelvin number decreases as the lumens (intensity) increases? can we have a lay mans explanation? always been puzzled by this. if im not mistaken the kelvin intensity determines the color of the light???

18w 1300lumens.....7000k
21w 1500lumens.....6500k
24w 1800lumens.....6000k

BTW pakman im looking forward to diving with your 21w salvo youve confused me some more

 

[pakman]

This threw me off a bit as well. I came across a number of threads on Salvo's various HID's over at http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/ forum. Seems the Salvo 18W give a whiter color and people say similiar to that nice cool bluish light that the Halcyon's have. But this appears to be in reference to the older 21W brightstar bulb which is different from the 18W/24W ones currently use. But now, it appears Barry is using the same bulb on the 21W as well. Sooo, I believe as the specs say above, the 21W and 24W are indeed brighter in terms of lumens, but they give a slightly warmer color so to the human eye might "appear" less bright that the whiter 18W. Again, this is all from 2nd sources and not from 1st hand experience. Best bet is to shoot Barry an email and he'll sort you out (he's really good at responding quickly even to my stupid questions). Also remember that the 18W/21W/ and 24W are all the same price...

also check rebreatherworld.com as I think I saw a number of threads on Salvo's as well.

 

[Spoon]

This threw me off a bit as well. I came across a number of threads on Salvo's various HID's over at http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/ forum. Seems the Salvo 18W give a whiter color and people say similiar to that nice cool bluish light that the Halcyon's have. But this appears to be referencing the old 21W bulb which I guess was different from the 18W/24W ones currently use. But now, it appears Barry is using the same bulb on the 21W. Sooo, I believe as the specs say above, the 21W and 24W are indeed brighter in terms of lumens, but they give a slightly warmer color so to the human eye might "appear" less bright that the whiter 18W. Again, this is all from 2nd sources and not from 1st hand experience. Best bet is to shoot Barry an email and he'll sort you out (he's really good at responding quickly even to my stupid questions). Also remember that the 18W/21W/ and 24W are all the same price...

also check rebreatherworld.com as some of them have Salvo's as well.

thanks, i actually like the bluer lights more than the white ones. so why dint you get the 24 instead of the 21?

 

[pakman]

I thought the 24W would be over kill... But one thing I did find out that isn't mentioned on barry's website is that the 21W twist focus head is a different design than 18W/24W. The balast is shorter and supposedly feels better on your hand. But the bulb is not covered by a test tube like the 18W/21W models but is sealed by the focus reflector. Don't know what the implications there are in terms of performance, other than I can't use the video reflector with this model.

 

[Mark Vlahos]

Well, you have already used a 10 watt. In my opinion a 10 watt HID is more than enough light for a night dive in generally good visibility waters, in many cases it is actually too much light. I have a 10 watt Sartek and on recreational night dives I flood the beam out to a wide angle. A spot beam is just too much light for the critters that come out at night.

In the daytime in the recreational good visibility environment the 10 watt can be a little lacking. This is the toughest environment for a dive light because you are competeing with the SUN, frankly any dive light will just not compare. As the visibility goes down due to particulate matter in the water then a high wattage but really narrow beam will tend to be better. In my opinion, in a cave 10 watts is fine in most caves, at least the ones I have been in.

One often misunderstood thing about lights is that more is better. This is not always true. In an environment where the only light is the one you provide, like a cave, it is more important that all of the dive team members have relatively equal lights. Your eyes will adjust. In the open ocean during the daytime bright lights will compete with the Sun and provide for good signaling. If your buddies are using 21 watt HID's that would probably be what you should end up with. If your buddies have 10 watt HID's and you get a 21 watt, then your buddies will curse you, because you will make them spend the money to upgrade.

The color temperature thing is a little more difficult to explain, and since it is how I make my living I could get really technical and put you all to sleep, but lets not. To put it simply the HID lamp you used and most LED lights have a relatively high color temperature, these tend to skew toward the blue end of the spectrum when compared to normal incandescent lights, these are warmer and look a little brown when compared side by side with higher color temperature lights. Generally higher color temperature lights will do well in the water at relatively short distances like we deal with in dive lights. The whole lumen thing can be a bit misleading because in the real world of diving the higher color temperature can make a lower lumen light appear brighter to the naked eye. You gave an example where the HID was not any brighter than the LED lights in your group, this is a trick of the eye, the color temperature of the lights was tricking you into thinking that they were about equal. The HID would cut further through the water than the LED's would, but since your eyes adjust to the intensity they SEEM to be the same.

Color rendition is an issue you have not mentioned because I assume that you do not know how HID's or LED's make their light. The HID has better color rendition and gives you light more evenly across the color spectrum than an LED does. LED's make a series of spikes that when added together appear white, but if you are looking at an object that is a color that is not emitted from the LED then the item will appear sort of brown and not very vibrant, much like looking ar red sponges at 80 feet with only sunlight to illuminate them. But I digress.

Good luck,

Mark Vlahos

 

[Spoon]

I thought the 24W would be over kill... But one thing I did find out that isn't mentioned on barry's website is that the 21W twist focus head is a different design than 18W/24W. The balast is shorter and supposedly feels better on your hand. But the bulb is not covered by a test tube like the 18W/21W models but is sealed by the focus reflector.

so your saying the 21w is different from the 18/24w but only difference is the test tube? i would think and assume the test tube would give added protection to the bulb but what do i know? also im used to overkill kinda like it

 

[daniel f aleman]

Salvo: they don't leak, they don't fall apart, and they don't have service problems as does another well-known Florida brand.

 

[Spoon]

Well, you have already used a 10 watt. In my opinion a 10 watt HID is more than enough light for a night dive in generally good visibility waters, in many cases it is actually too much light. I have a 10 watt Sartek and on recreational night dives I flood the beam out to a wide angle. A spot beam is just too much light for the critters that come out at night.

In the daytime in the recreational good visibility environment the 10 watt can be a little lacking. This is the toughest environment for a dive light because you are competeing with the SUN, frankly any dive light will just not compare. As the visibility goes down due to particulate matter in the water then a high wattage but really narrow beam will tend to be better. In my opinion, in a cave 10 watts is fine in most caves, at least the ones I have been in.

One often misunderstood thing about lights is that more is better. This is not always true. In an environment where the only light is the one you provide, like a cave, it is more important that all of the dive team members have relatively equal lights. Your eyes will adjust. In the open ocean during the daytime bright lights will compete with the Sun and provide for good signaling. If your buddies are using 21 watt HID's that would probably be what you should end up with. If your buddies have 10 watt HID's and you get a 21 watt, then your buddies will curse you, because you will make them spend the money to upgrade.

The color temperature thing is a little more difficult to explain, and since it is how I make my living I could get really technical and put you all to sleep, but lets not. To put it simply the HID lamp you used and most LED lights have a relatively high color temperature, these tend to skew toward the blue end of the spectrum when compared to normal incandescent lights, these are warmer and look a little brown when compared side by side with higher color temperature lights. Generally higher color temperature lights will do well in the water at relatively short distances like we deal with in dive lights. The whole lumen thing can be a bit misleading because in the real world of diving the higher color temperature can make a lower lumen light appear brighter to the naked eye. You gave an example where the HID was not any brighter than the LED lights in your group, this is a trick of the eye, the color temperature of the lights was tricking you into thinking that they were about equal. The HID would cut further through the water than the LED's would, but since your eyes adjust to the intensity they SEEM to be the same.

Color rendition is an issue you have not mentioned because I assume that you do not know how HID's or LED's make their light. The HID has better color rendition and gives you light more evenly across the color spectrum than an LED does. LED's make a series of spikes that when added together appear white, but if you are looking at an object that is a color that is not emitted from the LED then the item will appear sort of brown and not very vibrant, much like looking ar red sponges at 80 feet with only sunlight to illuminate them. But I digress.

Good luck,

Mark Vlahos

thanks for that awesome explanation mark! hit the spot. i was originally going to settle for ten but i am getting into wreck and cave and will defintely upgrade to a bigger one in the future so i wanted an all around light that is not too much yet practical for me. also i wouldnt have to worry about upgrading in the future.

also no one hardly dives hids here becasue of the prices. most of my buddies just have regular dive lights and i will most likely be the light source in most of our dives. as for the tech dives i wouldnt know bec i dont have any tech/wreck buddies as of the moment. what would you choose? 18/21 in terms of balance, color rendition and intensity? if only the prices were different id get the cheaper one. barry had to make my decision making worse by pricing the 18/21/24 all the same

 

[pakman]

Salvo: they don't leak, they don't fall apart, and they don't have service problems as does another well-known Florida brand.

that's the leap of faith I'm making as there are only a few dealers just signing up to sell salvo's in Asia (I think Malaysia. singapore, and maybe Japan). I've seen a number of people in my dive club and my tec instructor complaining about their Halycon and dive rites being in the shop for repairs all the time...

 

[pakman]

so your saying the 21w is different from the 18/24w but only difference is the test tube? i would think and assume the test tube would give added protection to the bulb but what do i know? also im used to overkill kinda like it

I'm not 100% sure, but the test tube provides the water seal whereas in my 21W case, the reflector housing is the seal (no water get's inside) to the ballast. Again, not 100% sure and best to ask da man Barry himself. OK, gotta run out now and get a Pelican case to baby my Salvo and see you on Sat in Anilao!