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Good outfitter reports, both of them. Very quick turnaround, too.
For readers who believe that outfitters should be *above* responding to diver complaints on this board... you should spend more time reading scubaboard posts to see what happens to the outfit's reputation when the outfitter chooses not to respond. Typically it tanks, not to put too fine a point on it.
It might not be *right* or *fair* to the outfitter, but it's the way it works. The SB moderators do a fantastic job contacting outfitters directly in these situations, to make sure they're informed about this forum and what's posted on it.
Do you realize that the original dive operator/outfitter never responded?
A first time poster made an anonymous negative report about a dive charter. Based on that report, you (and others) decided that the charter runs a crappy operation, without good communication, don't do their job, and screwed the pooch. Instead of withholding judgement about a situation you don't know anything about, you were even willing to post those conclusions in a public forum with your name (and reputation) behind them.
Now, based on a few more reports, you are ready to toss your first set of conclusions and decide that the dive operator is alright.
Let me ask a hypothetical question? What if the original poster comes back and posts an eloquent response claiming that everyone else is lying about what happened to him that day and the trip really was as bad as he claimed? Would the dive op be back in your doghouse?
That just doesn't make any sense to me. These kind of hit and run smears wouldn't have as much power if people used a little more common sense when reading the complaints (and the responses).
I know that some of the complaints posted on SB are justified, and there are some rotten operators out there, but someone who has been on (or run?) a few dive charters should have been able to sniff this one out from miles away. Instead, you (and others) fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
To be fair fireflock, I am not sure that Archman fell for anything. This is what I get from his post (he will have to say if I understood it correctly or if you did):
- He has said that the charter SHOULD respond because they traditionally get a really bad rap when they remain quiet to claims on SB.
- He has not said he sides with anybody in particular....just said that they were good posts.
Nowhere did I get the impression that he was praising the efficient and safe operation of the outfitter in question. Nor was he bashing them with negative words. He really said nothing other than commending the two primary Pro/Con posters for good arguments.
__________________
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I took some of that from an earlier post he made in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by archman
If even part of the OP's story is correct, that's one crappy dive charter. Small boat notwithstanding. Crappy conditions notwithstanding. There should be much better communication between the crew and the passengers. Especially for folks who are doing this sort of diving for the first time.
Everybody has a first time. Part of the crew's job is to make those divers in particular feel they're in safe hands.
Dive outfits can and do screw the pooch, even outfits that normally have good reputations. I'm sure most people who boat-dive a lot have experience with this... I certainly have (even with my own staff).
It is prudent and expected for the dive outfitter to respond on this board. I have noted that often there's a *delay* of some days, however. Asking for a response this quick seems rather unreasonable.
Maybe you read that post a little differently than I do.
The whole idea that someone HAS to respond or be considered guilty doesn't make sense to me. I think it's up to the reader (or the community) to also consider the credibility of the complaint.
This stretches beyond the scope on this thread and into how people on SB respond to negative reports. I guess it reminds me of a reporter walks up and says 'Some parties have expressed concern that you ....some really horrible and usually ridiculous thing.... How would you respond to that?' The reporter isn't willing to say that he/she thinks the concern is valid, they aren't willing to say who does think it is valid, but a person is still expected to respond like it's a valid concern?
Part of looking at a complaint is to examine both the substance of the complaint and the credibility of the complainer. Sometimes the complaints are legit, and sometimes they are not, but it shouldn't be entirely up to the dive op to come in and save themselves each and every time anything bad is written about them. In the absence of some 3rd party facts, it becomes nothing but a he-said/she-said with a nebulous jury.
This particular complaint didn't strike me as reputable. I'm sure some parts of it are true, some are probably false, and there are probably some facts that have conveniently been left out. What would have happened to the reputation of the dive op if seemingly reputable 3rd parties (who aren't exactly detached from the outcome) hadn't decided to chime in?
I'm not trying to dismiss anyone who makes a negative post. I'm just begging for a more critical reading before chiming in.
edit... for what it's worth - the exact same post was made on 3 other boards that I know of. The original post was dismissed each time based on a reading of the complaint. I'm not sure why the response here was different.
Rich
Last edited by fireflock; November 17th, 2008 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: add info about same complaint in other places
Ultimately, I agree with you Rich. It is the responsibility of the SB reader to determine in their own mind how they feel about what has been stated, claimed and implied. Each post on this board needs to be broken down by the reader so they can assess the accuracy or trustworthiness of it. After a little while you start to develop a sense for certain people on the board and how their posts come off. Some you trust. Some you ignore.
When someone comes on this board and makes strong negative claims against a business of some sort, I look at what is said for: 1) is the post well thought out?, 2) Does the poster appear to be educated (i.e. can they structure a sentence properly), 3) How realistic do their expectations seem to be in my opinion and 4) have they been professionally critical or just an Ahole. These typically will determine for me how credible the poster is.
if sumone canot compleet a thawt or a sentense and everthing is in lower case and no proper gramar is prezent and no spell chek was dun and if they are unprofeshunal in ther post and if they...and if they.....and if they....(and yes the spelling errors were done on purpose )
I agree that the Mods and staff do a great job in contacting those companies which are being flamed to allow them the opportunity to come over and defend themselves. I do agree that it is important that they show up and do that. However, I will still draw my own conclusion based on how I interperet things here. I may not think that the Charter Operator was professional when they defended themselves....you never know. And if they do not show up....same story. I will make up my mind by determining if I believe the story to be credible.
I firmly believe that each poster should operate this way as well. After all, we are responsible for ourselves and just because I saw it on OB, does not mean it is true (no matter who said it).
__________________
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I learned to wreck dive in NC waters, and I have been on wreck dives with Packman and Herman. I want to tell dvrsteve that it's not called the "graveyard of the Atlantic" for nothing. Why do you think we all carry 6 ft surface markers along with dive horns? Sorry you didn't do your homework, but NC wreck diving can be some of the most rewarding. Read up and give it a try again sometime. There's lots of history in those waters. Good posts everyone.
However, as a paying customer at the age of almost 60, I don't expect
to be bullied and threatened by the crew as I was for an unprovoked
situation. The USCG requires captain and crew to act in a professional
manner irregardless of the situation. This thug treatment was the
reason for the original post.
If you think it's that important to know my name here it is, Steve Achekian
You guys need to realize that age makes a big difference on how you are being treated.....bet if you were a hot chick you would never have had this issue Next time wear a bikini...
Age does make a difference, so does being nice. I, too, am living in my 5th decade, and Yes, that is a current picture of me in a bikini in my profile.
In next month's edition of "As the seas churn" melodrama soapopera, someone chides Capt. Tom for not putting the little bamboo umbrellas on the coctails served on the lido deck.
This has been an interesting read - seeing the pulse of opinion sway to and fro, depending on the previous poster. I, for one, will congratulate Capt. Tom for not posting. He has nothing to gain, and everything to be scrutinized for.
If he calls the guy out for being a tool, he's an online bully. If he apologizes for having a bad day, everyone will pile on since it's easy to do in anonymous internet world.
I have been on Spearit with Capt. Tom many times. If you are hoping for a romantic journey that's filled with lots of TLC by a crew dedicated to serving your every need, you've definitely picked the wrong boat. If you seek a boat that puts you on fish (see boat nomenclature), or in this case, teeth, in comfort and with safety as a top priority, then Spearit is worth a look. I heard one of my favorite quotes from an "inland" dive instructor on a trip with Capt. Tom: "you don't have to worry about me...I'm a certified dive instructor." This certified dive instructor proceeded to take FOREVER to get in the water, insisted that a back roll wasn't a safe entry, and had to be rescued at the end of his dive, out of air (and nowhere near his students that were already on the boat).
If your idea of an ideal captain is Merrill Stubing (love boat) , then Capt. Tom is not the guy. Will a retired Marine be direct, YEP! But, it is doubtful to be the soft, gentle, nurturing type.
There are lots of dive operations that cater to weekend warriors that need help with their gear, have trouble with buoyancy, constantly get lost, etc. Given the typical dive conditions off the NC coast, I would not recommend Spearit to them. Not because of the boat, Capt., or crew. But because this can be difficult diving.
I have personally witnessed Capt. Tom lose it on people a couple times. For example, If you bring along a portable handheld GPS because you're "curious" how far from land you are, you may get screamed at (and you may lose your GPS also). If you totally ignore all dive protocols and put yourself or the rest of the passengers in danger, you may expect an unpleasant reaction...until the "problem" is resolved.
I have not spoken with Capt. Tom, but would be willing to bet that somewhere along this trip, the original poster tried to educate the Capt. Tom on how to properly run his boat, or to let him know that he's not docking properly or that 4 strokes would be quieter. He really likes those types of comments.
This member has said "Thank you." to gumshoe for this useful post:
I have not spoken with Capt. Tom, but would be willing to bet that somewhere along this trip, the original poster tried to educate the Capt. Tom on how to properly run his boat, or to let him know that he's not docking properly or that 4 strokes would be quieter. He really likes those types of comments.
First, that was hillarious
Second, Thanks now when I make my way down to NC I will look this fellow up and be sure I brush up on all my know-it-allisms. . . Seems thats a way to make lots of friends of boat CPT's . . .
__________________
^^^DISCLAIMER- The above post has been posted as an opinion that is solely my own opinion and no other then my own. Any implied facts given are in fact implied and not actual facts, no matter what is posted.
In next month's edition of "As the seas churn" melodrama soapopera, someone chides Capt. Tom for not putting the little bamboo umbrellas on the coctails served on the lido deck.
This has been an interesting read - seeing the pulse of opinion sway to and fro, depending on the previous poster. I, for one, will congratulate Capt. Tom for not posting. He has nothing to gain, and everything to be scrutinized for.
If he calls the guy out for being a tool, he's an online bully. If he apologizes for having a bad day, everyone will pile on since it's easy to do in anonymous internet world.
I have been on Spearit with Capt. Tom many times. If you are hoping for a romantic journey that's filled with lots of TLC by a crew dedicated to serving your every need, you've definitely picked the wrong boat. If you seek a boat that puts you on fish (see boat nomenclature), or in this case, teeth, in comfort and with safety as a top priority, then Spearit is worth a look. I heard one of my favorite quotes from an "inland" dive instructor on a trip with Capt. Tom: "you don't have to worry about me...I'm a certified dive instructor." This certified dive instructor proceeded to take FOREVER to get in the water, insisted that a back roll wasn't a safe entry, and had to be rescued at the end of his dive, out of air (and nowhere near his students that were already on the boat).
If your idea of an ideal captain is Merrill Stubing (love boat) , then Capt. Tom is not the guy. Will a retired Marine be direct, YEP! But, it is doubtful to be the soft, gentle, nurturing type.
There are lots of dive operations that cater to weekend warriors that need help with their gear, have trouble with buoyancy, constantly get lost, etc. Given the typical dive conditions off the NC coast, I would not recommend Spearit to them. Not because of the boat, Capt., or crew. But because this can be difficult diving.
I have personally witnessed Capt. Tom lose it on people a couple times. For example, If you bring along a portable handheld GPS because you're "curious" how far from land you are, you may get screamed at (and you may lose your GPS also). If you totally ignore all dive protocols and put yourself or the rest of the passengers in danger, you may expect an unpleasant reaction...until the "problem" is resolved.
I have not spoken with Capt. Tom, but would be willing to bet that somewhere along this trip, the original poster tried to educate the Capt. Tom on how to properly run his boat, or to let him know that he's not docking properly or that 4 strokes would be quieter. He really likes those types of comments.
).
)
Next time wear a bikini...
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