Discover scuba safety ratios of student to instructor

[Jim Lapenta]

Why? I just talked about this on Saturday at the show I was at. One instructor, two people on a discover in open ocean. It's not safe. Yet some still think that because standards allow it, it's ok to do. Only if you change the standard can you seem to force operations into changing the ratios for these. Now you have one dead, two others traumatized by the experience, and an instructor who has to try and live with the part he played in it. Open water discovers are bullcrap. They should not be done in any location where you can have any chance of going beyond 15 feet. If that. It seems though that there is an acceptable number of deaths and injuries if you read the opinions of some when it comes to revising ratios and limits. Otherwise they would not be so resistant to change them.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been split from a seperate discussion in the Accidents and Incidents forum here.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...03520-discover-scuba-fatality-queensland.html

The purpose of the latter forum is to discuss the specifics of the particular incident and not generalities. The posts in this thread deal with generalities about Discover Scuba courses with no regard to the causes of the specific accident. Marg, SB Senior Moderator

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[wgw04024]

OUr shop does Discover classes in a pool.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That's where they should be done. With a one to one or perhaps two to one ratio if the participants are comfortable enough to allow it. And if the instructor can indeed control both. Kids should always be one to one.

 

[Yarbrough]

I feel it is extremely irresponsible and unprofessional to form an opinion of this incident with the information given. Let's get the facts out before we run around warning that the sky is falling.

Although I agree that we do not have enough details to speculate on the cause involved, I think it is still fairly safe to say that when it comes to Discover Scuba Programs, the lower the ratio, the better. All too often, this is a persons first experience diving, sometimes chosen to see if diving is even something that they can do. I don't know about you, but I knew before I ever put on my first set of scuba gear that I was going to love it. I had no desire to take a DSD, but wanted to jump headlong into the certification course. I fear that I agree with Jim on this one, instructors need to have the good sense and the confidence to reduce ratios when need be. All too often, the instructors who are leading these programs are not the hardened, time tested instructors who look at a person and can spot trouble a mile out, but they are the instructors who just got their certification and are early on in their teaching career. I really hope that this instructor knows that bad things happen, and that they can come to grips with the incident. We need to focus on this as a community, and not leave our least experienced instructors in charge of the courses with the highest liabilities.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

So they make leashes for almost everything or even a retractable leash could work. A set of Velcro cuffs on each end of the leash - that way One Instructor has one or two wrists in use and therefore could not lose one or two DSD students... They can only go as far as the leash extends - 4 feet or a bit more (2 meters)?
Sounds like this is an easy fix - we are all down or all up - no one gets left behind and if you do I retract the leash and BAM! there you are.

 

[Yarbrough]

So they make leashes for almost everything or even a retractable leash could work.

I like this idea, something strong, like what is designed for walking a great dane or bull mastiff, clipped off to the diver, and controlled by the instructor, they could be longer than 4 ft if retractable, that way, the students in other courses, such as open water could be tied off too. Also takes care of the instructor taking students into areas they shouldn't be in because of entanglement issues, we would just need wide open space to dive in.

 

[1bubbleoff]

"Discover scuba dive"..."Try" dive...

The very nomenclature should dictate the parameters based on common sense and deductive reasoning imo.
No formal training...no understanding beyond "don't do this", and "I'll be right there don't worry about a thing".

The very epitome of a "trust me" dive.

I participate in try dives under these very specific conditions. 1 v 1...in a pool...in water that the student can stand up in. If you show me understanding, ability and comfort after 30 or so minutes of that...MAYBE...we'll explore the deep end of the pool. All 12' of it. AFTER a discussion with the participant and clear understanding of responsability's.

I'm just not willing to push that boundery any farther than that. Wanna SCUBA dive? GREAT!! Get proper training.

End full stop. Just my personal opinion and belief system at work.

 

[ZombieZombie]

My first dive was a discover scuba dive with what is widely considered a reputable dive firm on Mexico's Riviera Maya.
I was with one instructor who had a terrified me and two people doing their first dive of their OW class in 40' of water!
Looking back, it was madness. Initially the instructor was quite attentive and I guess she relaxed as I relaxed. I was as much as 20-30' from her most of the time although the viz was extremely good. If anything had gone wrong, I am sure I would have held my breath and bolted for the surface no matter what they told me in the briefing.

It is a monument to the reliability of scuba gear design that more people don't get hurt on discover scuba dives. I came out unscathed and soon was training for my OW. I guess that's why they do it the way they do it. I doubt I would have ever signed up for OW training if I was just in a pool or in 5 fsw. Many people continue diving because we had our minds blown at what we saw on our first attempt.

Is there an acceptable level of risk in discover dives? It is easy to say no and err on the side of caution. However, never diving at all is safer than diving.

 

[Wookie]

The very epitome of a "trust me" dive.

Actually, by design and the only way to look at it is that it is very literally a "trust me" dive. When you take on the responsibility as an instructor to perform a "try dive" (I can't really call it "instruction", because you can't possibly provide enough instruction in a flip chart to adequately prepare the average person to dive), you place the person you are taking's life very much in your hands. To do this with 2 is stretching the bounds of credulity to think you can be an effective supervisor, and to do it with 3 or 4 is completely ludicrous. I'm not surprised at all that the trial Ken was involved in turned out better for the plaintiff than the defendant.

Like I do with most things, I think about how I would answer on the witness stand: "Captain, how could you possibly think you could control 2 or more divers whose life you were responsible for?" The answer in a high liability situation makes my path very clear.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I like this idea, something strong, like what is designed for walking a great dane or bull mastiff, clipped off to the diver, and controlled by the instructor, they could be longer than 4 ft if retractable, that way, the students in other courses, such as open water could be tied off too. Also takes care of the instructor taking students into areas they shouldn't be in because of entanglement issues, we would just need wide open space to dive in.

I would hope that a discover dive at least is wide open and free of any inherent dangers... But that is me...