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I haven't read all of this thread. I have just one comment - use your local shop or lose it. Then don't winge because you can't get a tank filled for local diving.
This problem is not specific to diving, but to all specialised retail industries. It's easy to make money by choosing a few high-volume items and just selling those. You don't need to hold much stock as you can always get more in quickly, & you don't need to worry about giving after-sales service as most of your customers will be too far away to bother you. They'll go to friends or their LDS (if it still exists). If that doesn't work you can refer them to the manufacturer or importer.
The fact is that much scuba gear is badly made these days. I stopped selling one well-known brand of dive computer when I had an out-of-the-box failure rate of 50%. I have experienced several brands of regulator which are incorrectly adjusted in the first stage, so the inter-stage pressure is wrong. I have seen BCs that leak the first time they're put in the water. I often see hoses that fail within the first month.
Usually it's just a question of adjustment, though in the case of a regulator that isn't a 5 minute job. Sometimes, as with the computers, the only remedy is to return them to the manufacturer.
I can service everything I sell, so I can help my customers. What would they do if they'd bought mail-order? Long ago I started refusing to help people with gear that wasn't bought at my store, or at least at another reputable store. I make no apologies for that, and many smaller retailers now do the same. Why should we incur the costs of a workshop with all the associated tools, of training courses and of providing time to do these things, when I have had no profit from the original sale and the person who sold the goods was able to offer a low price because he had few stocking costs and no workshop costs?
I only have a small shop, yet I hold all the time over US$100k's worth of gear. How do you think that's financed? You go and get a loan for $100k and see what it costs you.
Along with many others my business is now struggling. That has nothing to do with the quality I provide as that has always been regarded as high, but with people who buy all their dive gear (or at least the expensive items) on-line. When I go out of business, and thousands have already gone that way, not only will you not be able to buy new gear locally, but you won't be able to get any help with it, you won't be able to get it serviced, and you won't be able to get a tank filled.
I'm thinking here more of my operation in Britain than my resort operation here in Belize. Here we can't come near to competing on price because of severe import taxes and restrictions, from a government that seems intent on strangling the tourist industry.
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No longer running a dive centre in San Pedro, but still teaching ad-hoc.
need to have much of this gear serviced at a LDS anyway so you are still getting the maintenance no matter where you buy the gear from
There is VERY little profit in servicing, and it is provided as a service to people who bought new. The profit is in the original sale and that subsidises any subsequent service. Take away that initial profit and the business collapses.
There is one business that has been much quoted in this thread. They have an LDS and operate an on-line business. I took a regulator to them for servicing, as it was my own and a brand that I couldn't work on. They charged me $180. When i got the regulator back home (in a different country) I discovered that it was worse than it had been when I took it to them, so I opened the regulator myself. Inside it was green and corroded. They had done a good job cleaning the outside but had never even opened the reg, relying on most people's trust and ignorance, and also that most of their customers are too far away for there to be any come-back. When I challenged them they asserted that indeed the reg had been serviced, but when I revealed that I was also in the business they still asserted that they had done the service but offered me my money back. How much more damning can you get?!
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No longer running a dive centre in San Pedro, but still teaching ad-hoc.
I don't know you from Adam but none of what you said would make me spend 150 dollars more on a regulator in person that I could get online. It's a changing world economy, you need to adapt your world to it rather than tell people to shell out a ton of their hard earned cash to sustain your business. The economy is tough on everyone these days, you guys aren't the only ones watching your bottom line. I'm sorry your local government sucks on imports though and I'll look you up for a trip to the Blue Hole if I'm ever down your way but with food and gas prices doubling here things are getting nice and tight.
I'm not looking forward to you (or any good LDS) going out of business but I can't wait for the day Best Buys and Circuit Cities go the way of the Dodo. I imagine LDS shops will need to change the paradigm by which they make profits if they want to survive. In any event, the good shops, which offer decent, quality service and are willing to be flexible on their initial (outrageous) prices will probably be just fine. I've seen the same thing with climbing stuff, 75 percent of the shops disappear but some manage to find a way to get enough customer loyalty and offer good advice, guided trips, repair shops, etc that they don't rely solely on high markup items to survive.
I'm willing to drop a bit of extra money for good service and probably could have gotten my wetsuits/vest for a 100 or so cheaper on line but it was 4 items, the service was good, and I felt warranted buying it from them rather than trying it on, going home, and ordering it. When it comes to a grand for gear bought online versus in person though, well maybe for some that's ok but for me that's a vacation or 10 months utility bills.
Prices aside, the biggest problem with LDS shopping is that each shop tells you that what they have is the best. If I went with my local shop I would never have taken the time to find different gear and would certainly never have decided to go with a BP/W set up as they didn't have a single one. As it stands I bought from Tobin and a LDS in Arizona and feel that both places had decent people who deserved my money.
Personally, if a store stocked regulators made by a certain manufacturer but refused to service it because you didn't shell out an extra 25 percent for it in person I'd never use them. Fortunately my LDS doesn't do that and if they did there are 5 others within 30 miles. Now if it was a model you don't carry then that seems reasonable to me.
As far as crappy maintenance on your reg? That sounds like a bad shop, I'd charge back my credit card, file a complaint somewhere, and never use them again. I don't think you can apply that to it having an online store. Some places are good, some are not. Where I live (landlocked) there are several, reputable dive shops and the client base to support them.
Last edited by jared w; June 10th, 2008 at 11:19 AM.
Another look @ this situation & I preface this by assuming, as you said, you're going to buy QUALITY stuff......:How much ('additional') money are you talking about for the LDS vs online equipment ???.....I'm going to guess $750 to $1000--if this amount of money is going to make or break you, IMO get it online.........
That's not the way I look at things. I doubt that $1000 will make or break you so will you send me a $1000 check to be your lifelong friend? If you consider that we could live another 40 years, that's just a few dollars per month. I won't be holding my breath waiting for the mailman, though. It isn't a matter of whether one can afford the extra money or how little it is over a period of time, but whether one feels the added benefits (if any) are worth it. A dive shop will tell you it is but that's a judgment call each person has the right to make for themselves.
I get from both. I got all my starter equipment from my LDS. Most stuff they are pretty good on. My BC, reg and comp were within $20 online. I did get a wetsuit online because it was on sale for $100 as opposed to $250 in the LDS.
Some things I dont understand, my LDS sells the SeaLife Reefmaster mini for $370, MSRP is $270?!
Most LDS I have been in make their money off trips, being a travel agent pays the bills I guess. or they have a online presence.
What you have to remember is that your LDS is a business, like any other. It has to be profitable to survive, or all the support you enjoy goes away. All pricing is governed by the manufactorer as to maximum and minimum, which is intended to put shops on a level playing field. This field is disrupted by the on-line stores like Leisure Pro, who often are buying up the inventory from closing shops and putting it on the market at a reduced price.
When you look at it from an economic perspective, it's easy to understand paying less for a product. You still have to ask yourself who will help you support that product with maintenance, provide you with airfills, sponsor/lead your local dive trips and be there when you need training or advice. If your local shop is treating you fairly, then support them so that they don't go away!
I haven't read all of this thread. I have just one comment - use your local shop or lose it. Then don't winge because you can't get a tank filled for local diving.
I can service everything I sell, so I can help my customers. What would they do if they'd bought mail-order? Long ago I started refusing to help people with gear that wasn't bought at my store, or at least at another reputable store. I make no apologies for that, and many smaller retailers now do the same. Why should we incur the costs of a workshop with all the associated tools, of training courses and of providing time to do these things, when I have had no profit from the original sale and the person who sold the goods was able to offer a low price because he had few stocking costs and no workshop costs?
I only have a small shop, yet I hold all the time over US$100k's worth of gear. How do you think that's financed? You go and get a loan for $100k and see what it costs you.
Along with many others my business is now struggling. That has nothing to do with the quality I provide as that has always been regarded as high, but with people who buy all their dive gear (or at least the expensive items) on-line. When I go out of business, and thousands have already gone that way, not only will you not be able to buy new gear locally, but you won't be able to get any help with it, you won't be able to get it serviced, and you won't be able to get a tank filled.
I'm thinking here more of my operation in Britain than my resort operation here in Belize. Here we can't come near to competing on price because of severe import taxes and restrictions, from a government that seems intent on strangling the tourist industry.
And don't you be whining when you are forced to go out of business by a good businessman who understand that turning away customer's money is a loss, not a profit. Your operation sounds exactly like the type of shop that needs to go away so a good operation can make a go of it.
What you have to remember is that your LDS is a business, like any other. It has to be profitable to survive, or all the support you enjoy goes away.
That's half of it. The other half is it has to be competitive to be profitable. If it is not competitive, let it go away and make room for a good shop.
I'm getting the feeling that this is one of those 'Creationism vs Evolution' type topics for divers.
It's more like one of those 'I make my living from diving and need to protect my income' versus a 'I spend my money on diving and need to watch my budget' type topics.
