Diving without Certification (A RANT)

[Bob DBF]

I guess this sums up one problem with formal instruction today.

Just to make myself clear, the problem with this isnt that the diver is any less safe diving with you than with me, but I am much safer (legally) when I teach him vise you.

It is the quantity of insurance that counts not the quality of instruction. I am only supprised that it is said aloud.




Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

[tomfcrist]

I guess this sums up one problem with formal instruction today.



It is the quantity of insurance that counts not the quality of instruction. I am only supprised that it is said aloud.




Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

Bob, you may want to rethink that statement.......

Are you implying that I'm not a good instructor? Do you realize that there is no rule stating that people MUST get certified, and only an informal agreement between folks in the dive industry to only allow Certified divers to dive on thier boats?

If you honestly think that a man with 2000+ dives is incapable of presenting safe training(even though they are not formal instructors), you have issues.

The real problem with formal instruction these days is the notion that Instructors are EXPERTS or OFFICIALS in the industry. Based on my experiance, some of the best divers I have ever met are uncertified divers that have a few thousand dives more than the local instructor.

Yes, as instructors we should hold ourselves to a high standard, however if you read some of the threads on this boar4d you will see that there are plenty of "Experts" and instructors that arent worth thier weight in salt. Do you believe that it is better for a diver to get thier training from these instructors, or to learn from a very experianced diver who may or may not be an official instructor?

What Nobody on here will condone is a newbie diver "Teaching" another person how to dive......;..For obvious reasons.

[NWGratefulDiver]

But the OP stated the tech diver was supervising the dive, so I doubt (an assumption) the supervisor would let the diver just bolt for the surface, and probably mentioned that bolting to the surface is bad.

A significant part of dive instructor training involves learning how to manage students ... which includes some insight into what conditions might lead them to want to, and maintaining a close enough proximity to the student to prevent them from acting out an instinctive reaction. Not only is this not part of tech training ... in some respects it's counter to what tech training teaches you. The assumtion that a tech diver would know how to do this is not a good one. And usually when someone bolts for the surface, they're in such a mental state that they're likely to forget anything you may have "mentioned" prior to the dive.

Tech divers are not trained to "supervise" ... they're relying on skills that assume that they have a competent dive buddy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Have you ever wondered why children can be home schooled but scuba diver can't

Homeschooled children still have to pass standardized tests ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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No offense... but I find it ironic that most of the responses in this thread don't see a problem... except the DMs or Instructors.

Well ... ya don't know what ya don't know ... FWIW, I don't see a problem, but rather a potential for one. Most tech divers I know would make terrible instructors ... their mindset just isn't a good fit for what it takes to train someone how to dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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At the same time, there are plenty of instructors that have way less experience than me, or others whom I know, and I'm pretty darn sure that without me being a "professional" instructor, I would venture a guess that I could give someone a way more comprehensive scuba education than let's say the guy who has 200 dives... regardless of how much they paid to become an instructor and they were taught some approved method for teaching.

... it was stated that this tech diver had about 250 dives ... that ain't a lot, really.

But I'm with ya on the low bar to become a dive instructor ... I've known a couple who got their instructor rating right at 100 dives and, frankly, I wouldn't trust them with anybody I cared about ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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You're rather missing the point. In the old days most of the folks who were diving without benefit of "formal" training were first of all water people, surfers, ocean swimmers, free divers, etc., and second of all were simply extending skills that they already had by individuals or guided study on the their own ... usually by reading and practice under controlled conditions. It is not that people today are just too stupid to study and learn on their own, but more that a different slice of the population is becoming interested in diving.

... betchya there weren't very many overweight 50-somethings taking dive instruction 40 years ago like there are today ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Of course you would... you're an instructor. It's almost obligatory for you to do so...

That's a pretty damned insulting insinuation ... and it also happens to be untrue. I probably talk more people out of a class than I talk into one, because I happen to think that a great deal of the learning process comes from just going diving ... but never would I suggest to a first-time diver that they should just go jump in the water with someone who may not be qualified to assure their safe return.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Divedoggie]

If we make the ASSumption that the individuals presented by the OP, had a good plan for the single "Discover Scuba" dive and that they have a trust based relationship with a high level of communication, and the Tech diver who supervised the dive was able to have control of himself and his friend throughout the dive, then it was likely ok.

However, where do we in the diving community draw the line?

The danger of diving beyond one's training as a concept, should be reinforced at all levels of diving.
We shouldn't sit here and make exceptions based on the type of dive it was, or on the perception of the lead diver's expertise.

We all would agree that penetrating an overhead environment without proper training and equipment is foolish at best. Yet people do it all of the time, and they get away with it for 10, maybe 20 dives in a row. Then they start to see themselves as experts...right up until the moment that something goes wrong and they have not even the slightest idea of protocol, and they perish.
Where does this attitude of being the exception to the rule and forgoing formal training come from?

Whether we are Instructors or not, as responsible members of the dive community, we should lead by example and reinforce proper education and training from day one.

[tomfcrist]

Divedoggie,

Go ahead and tell me that you have not once dove outside of the scope of your training......Yes, it has risks, but someone had to be the test bench for every specialty that you could think of teaching. And if nobody pushes the envelope, then we will never expand the industry. Take for instance this IMHO insane dive to 652 feet on a rebreather......I assure you that someone had to do it first......and regardless of thier level of training, it was probably the highest risk dive of thier life. Cave diving is another example of diving beyond training level.....There was no "cave" training untill people started killing themselves in caves, and the folks that hadnt killed themselves all of a sudden became the "EXPERTS" in the specialty.

Your statements are "Safe" from a liability standpoint, however closed minded. Its almost as closed minded as saying that a mask on your forehead is a sign of distress.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Divedoggie,

Go ahead and tell me that you have not once dove outside of the scope of your training......Yes, it has risks, but someone had to be the test bench for every specialty that you could think of teaching. And if nobody pushes the envelope, then we will never expand the industry. Take for instance this IMHO insane dive to 652 feet on a rebreather......I assure you that someone had to do it first......and regardless of thier level of training, it was probably the highest risk dive of thier life. Cave diving is another example of diving beyond training level.....There was no "cave" training untill people started killing themselves in caves, and the folks that hadnt killed themselves all of a sudden became the "EXPERTS" in the specialty.

Your statements are "Safe" from a liability standpoint, however closed minded. Its almost as closed minded as saying that a mask on your forehead is a sign of distress.

People who dive beyond their training and potentially endanger themselves are free to do so ... we're all adults and can decide for ourselves how much risk we want to assume.

People who dive beyond their training and potentially endanger someone else are a whole different matter ... particularly when that someone else is an untrained diver who has no clue what they're getting themselves into. That act is not only reprehensible and fraught with risk ... but it is something we should certainly NOT be advocating as "OK" in this particular forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[TSandM]

You know, there is such a wide spectrum of what this COULD be, that it's hard to talk intelligently about whether it was safe.

I know one instructor I'd feel nervous about putting a non-diver into a DSD with. I know a technical diver I think would do a fantastic job of taking someone underwater for the first time. I know people in general whose judgment is suspect (the instructor here locally who took a group of young men, some of whom had been his students, to 200 feet on single Al80's comes to mind). I take care of the results of testosterone-addled young men deciding something was a "good idea" -- and it rarely is.

What you CAN say, I think, is that a tech diver with 250 dives probably has very good buoyancy control, is capable of maintaining his own diving in the face of some significant task-loading, and has a very low anxiety quotient. I suspect, although I obviously can't know, that such a diver, with no instructional training, would not be in a hurry to take someone who acted terrified of the idea into the water (unless it was his wife). So the "student" was probably cheerful and looking forward to the event.

Is there potential for a disaster here? You bet. There was obviously potential for disaster in Lake Rawlings a few days ago, too, and that was with trained instructional staff. My first case of passive panic was my very first OW dive with students as a DMC . . . you think I knew what to do with it?

My takeaway from the little we know of this story is that it's PROBABLY a better idea for people to do their first submersion with someone who has some training in how best to get that done safely -- but given the right combination of experienced diver and "student", a brief introduction to diving can probably be done safely by people with good skills and common sense.

And I find it utterly tragic that our litigious society (and believe me, I KNOW about that) would cause someone to decide not to do something like this, not because he felt inadequately trained to do it, but simply because he had no insurance to cover the activity.

[supergaijin]

This whole thread is whether or not it's inherently unsafe, and the vast majority of experienced divers (except scuba instructors) in this thread seem to agree that it's not.

I guess that means only the experienced divers with 250+ dives?

I read the OP's statement. It's fairly vague in the details but basically I understand that a 'tech diver' with over 250 dives took someone out on a shore dive. I read nothing about any conditions.

Alright, I have to get this off my chest!! I have a friend who decided to go diving without any certification. The guy that took him was a Tech Diver with over 250 dives. I told my friend that diving without a cert is a pretty big risk. He may try it and love but by never taking the class he doesn't know what he doesn't know. I'm pretty upset at the Tech diver, because a guy with his experience and training should have put the brakes on this.

Am I making a big deal for no reason or do ave a point. No one here seems to think it is a big deal.

Okay, Hold on just sec. This isnt 1970 (no disrespect). Both guys are under 30 of age. The friend is my brother-in-law. The tech diver is friend of his from work. My point is if he wanted to learn to dive he should have found an instructor. I have friends who are instructors who let me strap on a tank in their pool. This was not one of those instances.

It was on the coast. Apparently a shore dive of some sort. Again it just seems like a heck of a risk. It leaves me scratching my head. Yeah nothing happened, but it could have. I thought that, as divers, we needed to mitigate risk and call things out that don't seem quite right. Which is what I'm doing here. If I'm wrong, so be it and I'll shut-up. However, I feel I have a point.

Without knowing much if anything about the original divers in question, I fail to see why HowardE is getting so rabid about the qualified responses of the few certified instructors that have participated here.

As has been said before, this isn't the 70's when men were men and sheep were worried. The beginner may or may not have been 'a natural athlete' who was born to dive- we just don't know. Give a casual glance at a newspaper's obituaries after a Saturday night; which gender and age group are the most prone to succumb to Darwin's rule?

Both guys are under 30 of age. The friend is my brother-in-law. The tech diver is friend of his from work.

I have given my opinion as a professional diving instructor with years of experience in teaching divers to beginners- some naturals, most not.

[tomfcrist]

People who dive beyond their training and potentially endanger themselves are free to do so ... we're all adults and can decide for ourselves how much risk we want to assume.

People who dive beyond their training and potentially endanger someone else are a whole different matter ... particularly when that someone else is an untrained diver who has no clue what they're getting themselves into. That act is not only reprehensible and fraught with risk ... but it is something we should certainly NOT be advocating as "OK" in this particular forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, I agree with you. It is not OK to endanger anyones life, and that applies to us instructors as well.

Humor me here.....

My ITC was very comprhensive as im sure yours was as well. However, the only thing i "Learned" from my ITC was paperwork and liability. The skills I posessed were already demonstration quality, and the other portions of the course were a breeze for me. Does that mean that if prior to completing my ITC i performed a DSD with a friend that I would have been putting that person in any more danger than i would be today? Heck no. What it would have done is put everything I own on the line if an incident occured, and I got sued. Not worth the risk to me. But to some others, it very well may be.

All im trying to say is that a non instructor rated individual CAN be capable of providing adequate instruction.

[supergaijin]

All im trying to say is that a non instructor rated individual CAN be capable of providing adequate instruction.

I agree- however nothing about a 'tech diver' with 250+ dives tells me that he was capable. But such is the disadvantages of replying from halfway around the world on an internet forum.