I'm half Irish, half German, and half French. Oh yeah, I got some English in me too.

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SmokingMirror

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The content of the thread title was said to me during a brief conversation with a Californian lady I happened to be sitting next to on a recent flight to Nairobi. I politely enquired with a smile as to how she considered this possible, whereupon she seemed rather confused, finally answering with "Well, like, my ancestors were European and stuff". Needless to say, the conversation didn't last much beyond the usual we're-stuck-side-by-side-on-a-ten-hour-flight pleasantries.

However, her statements - moronic as they were - highlighted a deeper form of national identity, which I'm curious to get people's opinions on.

Firstly, this thread has not been established for non-American posters to mock the American posters, or vice-versa. I'm interested in the thoughts of all the posters here, and, especially, of a variety of ages, so let's all try to maintain a flame-free discussion.

The crux of this thread is concerned with national identity, specifically manifested in what appears to be a propensity for many Americans to deny their own nationality and claim - in part - to be <insert whichever European country here>, and the questions raised therein.
Historically, the reason for this is self-evident. America, as a unified national entity, only has a few hundred years history compared with Europe's few thousand, and early settlers and immigrants generally divided themselves by country of origin, as much for reasons of security as identity. But is this nationalistic banding together really relevant today?

For many Europeans, a sense of national identity - not to be confused with national pride - is very clear. I have never met, seen, or even heard of any European claiming to be, for example, half-Irish and half-German. Even those with parents who are directly and identifiably belonging to a nation other than their own will rarely - if ever - consider themselves a nationality other than the one on whose soil they were born. Is the reason for this identity maturity; the knowledge that claiming to be part of another nation reaps no tangible benefits?

The converse of this is, of course, that for many Americans, a sense of national identity is not quite so clear. I have a close friend living in New York, Sarah, who considers herself part-Irish because, as far as any of us have been able to ascertain from her, her paternal grandfather lived there for a period. Her case is interesting, since she is not necessarily embarrassed to consider herself an American, but that the usage of the term as a form of self-identification simply doesn't occur to her. It is, however, interesting to note that regardless of their country of origin - and this holds true for most - people will come to their nation's defence if it is attacked. Case in point is again Sarah, who, when asked to consider that she might claim to be part Irish because she is embarrassed to admit to being an American, will become nationally defensive. I've noticed this in myself, when meeting with European friends who make a stereotyped joke about the English. Invariably (or perhaps the word should be instinctively?) I'll respond with a similar jibe against them, based on the strength of England. And this from somebody who doesn't consider themselves 'English', beyond the fact that they were born here.

So, to jump back across the Atlantic, is then this desire for many Americans to claim a link to Europe, a continuation of those early days of the immigrants? Or do many modern Americans feel that without making that claim their national identity is diminished?
The flip side to this coin is of course jingoism, which, as idiotic and ignorant as it is, sadly affects a great many people regardless of their national origins. In the case of the US, it is interesting to see how divisive the question of nationality is. Invariably there is one extreme or the other, unlike Europe where people, by and large, are less concerned, if indeed really care at all.

In many ways, Walcott - one of my favourite poets - summed it up well when he wrote: "I'm just a red ****** who love the sea/I had a sound colonial education/I have Dutch, ******, and English in me/and either I'm nobody, or I'm a nation." which seems to me to be a claim that our essential, individual identities depend upon our ability to view ourselves as a people. If so, then the people of a nation require a tale that in a plausible way describes and dramatizes their origins; without it, they will separate themselves first from their antecedents and then from one another, and, like a deracinated family, the People will perish. In Walcott's words, they will be nothing.
So why, in view of this, do so many Americans continue to - I'm sure genuinely - believe that they are part-<whichever nation>, when a strong sense of national identity is readily available to those who recognise that America's sense of self-identification is drawn from, and strengthened by, that very cultural diversity that went into its creation?

Right, that's more than enough talking from me, so now it's your turn.

Posters from the US, I'm as interested in your own views on your personal sense of national identity as I am on your thoughts regarding the greater question. Do you claim a direct connection with Europe, despite being born in the US? Are you proud to be American? Is there even a need to be proud to be part of any country?
Posters from Europe, are you proud of your national identity? Does it provide any benefit? And does it irritate you when an American - or indeed anyone for that matter - claims to be part of your country?

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As a brief footnote, I notice that Scubaboard automatically blanks out certain keywords (in this case those used by Walcott in his poem about identity). For those wanting to read the complete piece, without sections being removed under the confused idea that readers are not mature enough to take them in their intended context, I suggest this page.
 
I'm Polish but I have traces of Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Italian, Austrian and (in a way) American blood (my great grand mother was US citizen although with German origins).
Am I proud of being Polish? This is probably the most difficult question - my nation is a strange one and sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate it. So I can't answer this one. Do Americans annoy me by claiming their roots? No, they don't. I think this is in a way very American (sorry for generalization) - sooner or later almost everybody is looking for his/hers roots. This knowledge help us knowing where do we come from. Americans as a young nation and the biggest melting pot in the world are also looking for their roots. For quite a lot of them these roots are in Europe. So in the same way as I'm proud to have American roots, you are proud to have European ones.
On the other hand - and please don't take it personally - sometimes I think you are a bit jealous that we have a long history while yours is so short one. But I could be wrong keeping in mind the fact that very often being asked where do I come from and when Americans heard the answer were asking "which state?". Saying "Europe" do help though.
On the other hand - remember the saying - if somebody was born at stables doesn't mean he is a horse :wink:
Mania
 
I was told by a friend's 7-year old lately that she thinks I'm half Irish, half comedian, and half human ... :D

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Our very own cdiver2 put up another thread on roots a while back. I am not sure why the link to European (or other) ancestors is required, but i guess it gives some identity in a country created from immigrants (at one time) from all over the place and lacking a lengthy history compared to the Euro countries - so why not claim a little of that? I have also heard that using the phrase "European styling" or referencing that your product is popular in Europe somehow makes things sell better over here - maybe there is just a romanticism with Europe that the Americans have? Who knows, doesnt really matter to me, i am English born and bred, with a little Scot in my lineage some time back - i call myself English. :wink:
 
As for myself, I'm all American and proud of it. We have a nation here that was designed by our forefathers to be a beacon for the restof the world. However, modern politicians have corrupted those ideals.

My heritage is a kilt wearing Hun, Scots-German, for the most part. There are other traces but those are the dominant ones.

To me, it is interesting to know ones ancestry and history of family. I like to hear the stories of when my great-grandfather was on one of the last two sailing ships in the U.S. Navy. When the ship came into port people would say, "The Beast is in". They were not referring to the ship, but to my grandfather.

The connection to generations long gone is interesting and educational.
 
I don't believe it's true that Americans identify themselves as part x, part y, etc, because they are trying to deny their identity. I think that happens because we are a relatively new country, and people who have settled here, save for the native Americans, are all descended from people who came from somewhere else, I daresay a lot more often than is the case in Europe. Some European families date back centuries. That just doesn't happen here, we're not that old a country.
I would hope this trend will eventually die, and we will just identify ourselves as American.
I dislike the propensity of some cultures (in the US and elsewhere) to identify what "kind" a person is. I rarely even notice these things, and find it sort of offensive that people don't feel comfortable in many cases unless they categorize you. A family member asked me what nationality my new husband is, and it was the first time I even thought about it. I had no idea. I asked him. He had no clue either. We were meant for each other. :)
 
As my SEU likes to put it ... sooner or later, we'll all be mutts ... :D

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
SueMermaid:
I dislike the propensity of some cultures (in the US and elsewhere) to identify what "kind" a person is. I rarely even notice these things, and find it sort of offensive that people don't feel comfortable in many cases unless they categorize you.

This is an interesting point. Although national stereotypes will always exist, they're little more than an attempt at identity through categorizing - or criticizing - others (a kind of "we're us because we're not them" mentality).

jbichsel:
The connection to generations long gone is interesting and educational

Ah, but is it relevant, jbichsel? Do you feel that bringing up your Scots-German ancestory defines you as a person today? Do you consider yourself part-Scot and part-German, or simply American?
By your own admisssion you are a "proud American". Why? Does that identification actually have any tangible benefit for you? Does it make you feel more secure?

SueMermaid:
A family member asked me what nationality my new husband is, and it was the first time I even thought about it. I had no idea. I asked him. He had no clue either.

Again, another interesting point from SueMermaid. And to turn the attention against myself, I, like SueMermaid's new husband, really have very little idea as to how to respond to the question. I'm English by virtue that I was born here, but, beyond that, I feel very little need for - nor do I feel able to relate to - national identity (incidentally, I won't sidetrack this thread with it, but there is an interesting discussion about 'Englishness' to be found here).

Returning to the subject of the US, as a social collective, and those US posters are in a much better position than I to clarify on this, it seems to me that a great degree of American society is subdivided in terms of ethnic or national identification (Euro-American, African-American, Native-American, Asian-American, Latino-American, and so on). Why is this devision relevant? And does it help society as a whole, or does it just serve to further segregate the population?
 
mania:
the biggest melting pot in the world On the other hand-

I think the concept of the melting pot has been replaced with the concept of the tossed salad. Instead of blandly losing their individual ethnic identities and reaching cultural homogenaety, North America has managed to keep much of the individual flavours of its ingredient cultures. Hense the tossed salad.


mania:
if somebody was born at stables doesn't mean he is a horse

Love it!

I was born in Ireland to English parents and although I lived in Germany as long as I lived in England, I thought I was an Englishman until I became a New Zealander when I was 10. I have however now spent more time away form my "native" New Zealand than I have there, and certainly spent more time in Thailand and Mexico than I ever did in Blighty (England).


Its so confusing, I think Im turning Japanese.

.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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