Basic Cave 18 mo or loose it?

Veronica · July 25th, 2008, 04:26 PM

Here's my question..I have my basic cave restricted to 1/6 doubles...so if I'm okay with staying on the goldline and only having my basic.. why do I have to get my full within 18 mo or I loose my basic..and then what.. go back to cavern?
I am going to continue to get my full cave but, thought it was not fare to make someone loose there basic or have to continue forward.. by the way.I love to dive cave and wrecks..always staying as safe as possible and fully aware of what's going on.
Thanx,
Tadpole

Trixxie · July 25th, 2008, 04:29 PM

I don't know the exact reason (even though I asked my cave inst the same thing and was given an answer - it's the CRS syndrome kicking in) but it's a safety factor reason

I think they want the diver to be full cave or just cavern....not in limbo in between

TSandM · July 25th, 2008, 07:53 PM

It doesn't make a lot of sense, really, but maybe it's one way to make sure you are actively cave diving? Having the cert expire ensures, I think, that you don't take the class and then come back five years later to do some diving. GUE does the same thing with ALL their cave certs -- they all expire, and you have to submit proof of 25 dives at the level to renew them. Seems like a pretty good idea for cave diving to me.

SparticleBrane · July 25th, 2008, 09:05 PM

Just FYI they also do it for the GUE-F cert as well.

ucfdiver · July 29th, 2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veronica

Here's my question..I have my basic cave restricted to 1/6 doubles...so if I'm okay with staying on the goldline and only having my basic.. why do I have to get my full within 18 mo or I loose my basic..and then what.. go back to cavern?
I am going to continue to get my full cave but, thought it was not fare to make someone loose there basic or have to continue forward.. by the way.I love to dive cave and wrecks..always staying as safe as possible and fully aware of what's going on.
Thanx,
Tadpole

Your instructor can reissue your card, or cut you an intro card that's good for a lifetime if they choose to, from my understanding. My instructor made me aware of this before I gave him $$$ for the class (that it expires).

I don't think I've ever seen an "official" statement on why the card expires, but intro divers in doubles don't have a great track record, where as historically, intro divers in a single, do.....plus, let's face it, we both know after a few dives, you start wanting to do the grand traverse, see the bone room, head down the hill 400, and the list goes on.....at least I know I'm starting to wonder "what's over there", and will take my apprentice well before the 18 months are up

packman · August 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM

It's my understanding that, after 18 months, the basic cave reverts to intro. So you still maintain your cave certification, but you become limited to single cylinders instead of doubles. I don't believe there is an expiration beyond that, however...you can continue at the intro level forever, if you want.

Apprentice has an expiration, too, FTR.

DiveBandit · March 3rd, 2009, 07:50 AM

Has the NSS-CDS ever come out with anything official about this. I've been seeing people with new cards that have exp. dates, and the ones that did their basic further back are wondering (and pissed) if they are still certified??

I'm not a NSS-CDS instructor (yet) but i'm starting to get questions about it none the less...

battles2a5 · March 3rd, 2009, 09:02 AM

It is my understanding that the older cards will be grandfathered in. I think the jist of this thing is that a "basic" trained cave diver is not really a good term. It is really intro with doubles. Basic assumes you have all the skills needed for "basic" cave diving but you don't. You have intro skills with 260cf of gas on your back. Prior to the Basic cert, an "intro" diver in doubles could be issued a 12 month probationary Apprentice card so they could practice in doubles. You could use doubles if you intended to move forward with training and the 12 mo. probationary period let you hone the skills you learned prior to moving forward to Apprentice/ Full. Apprentice expires in 12 months for the same reason. So really, they are just adding back the timeline that should have been there in the first place. It all makes perfect sense to me.

John_B · March 4th, 2009, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battles2a5

It is my understanding that the older cards will be grandfathered in. I think the jist of this thing is that a "basic" trained cave diver is not really a good term. It is really intro with doubles. Basic assumes you have all the skills needed for "basic" cave diving but you don't. You have intro skills with 260cf of gas on your back. Prior to the Basic cert, an "intro" diver in doubles could be issued a 12 month probationary Apprentice card so they could practice in doubles. You could use doubles if you intended to move forward with training and the 12 mo. probationary period let you hone the skills you learned prior to moving forward to Apprentice/ Full. Apprentice expires in 12 months for the same reason. So really, they are just adding back the timeline that should have been there in the first place. It all makes perfect sense to me.

I still don't "get" this. Why is it bad to be doing 1/6th dives with 260cf of gas? Unless that they just don't trust you to follow your training and stick to the limits you agreed to. Why is less gas in an overhead considered a "good thing" for a diver new to that environment? If its a penetration limit, then just make it a penetration limit vs. an available gas limit.

Please don't take this as a criticism directed at Ryan or anyone else. I'm just genuinely at a loss to understand this.

DA Aquamaster · March 4th, 2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_B

I still don't "get" this. Why is it bad to be doing 1/6th dives with 260cf of gas? Unless that they just don't trust you to follow your training and stick to the limits you agreed to.

That is a big part of it. 260 cu ft is a lot of gas and can get you farther into the system than your level of training was designed for. If you give a diver the gas, he or she will eventually decide to use it to extend penetration once their comfort level increases, so the idea behind the 1/3rd singles or 1/6th doubles with a time limit rule is to keep you from getting in over your head at that level.

I should add there is some terminology confusion between the NSS-CDS Basic Cave cert and the NACD Intro Cave cert. They are different terms but are for all practical purposes the same level.

Intro level diving (under whatever name) is really about staying on the gold line and limiting penetration, and consequently avoiding any complex navigation and situations deeper in the cave where the potential to get into trouble that you cannot get yourself out of is too great.

Its just my opinon, but I think it is much like wet suit diving - there are those who pee in them and those who lie about it. Similarly, after a certain point in time post training - a year is probably as good a guess as any - there are into level divers who have made the occasional jump or traverse, exceeded 1/6ths in doubles, or otherwise bent the cert limits and then there are those who lie about never having done it.

With regards to a card that allows the use of doubles at the Intro level, it makes a lot more sense to regard it as a training status like Apprentice that is designed to expire rather than as a permanent certification level. The differences between agencies become issues of 12 versus 18 months.