Which PADI Course: Divemaster or Master Scuba Diver

[jewelofnile69]

My husband and I are continuing on with our scuba career and trying to become as proficient and knowledgable as we can. This summer we will be doing our AOW (see another thread I started), nitrox and rescue diver certifications. Next spring/summer we'd like to continue on. Can anyone tell me the real difference between divemaster and master scuba diver for PADI? I was surprised to see that most dive places around here charge more for Master Scuba Diver than for Divemaster. Is that because of all the specialty dives? (Granted, it's only like $25-50 more between the 4 local dive shops so it's not the cost that would drive our decision.)

Anyway, any knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[mathauck0814]

The dive master course is really for those who intend to become instructors and work in the industry. If that's not you, then don't bother with the dive master course. It won't do anything to make you a better or safer diver.

PADI's master diver course is not a course at all, but rather a recognition that you've completed the three centerline sport diver certifications and five specialties. Other agencies have a master diver program that does have course material that is valuable (the NAUI one, in my opinion, is actually worthwhile). Otherwise you're just trading your money for a piece of plastic that doesn't mean anything to anyone - despite PADI's marketing.

My opinion is that you should spend your money on diving rather than on training - at <50 dives you've learned more than you've put into practice. Go on a trip and rip out ~30 dives in a week, come back and knock down another 100-200 locally in your great lakes. Have some failures, deal with some emergencies and build your confidence as a diver. By the time you're a few hundred dives in, you should have a pretty solid idea of the type of diving you'd like to progress into - then spend some money on additional training (if you need it).

Feeding the PADI machine with dollars you could otherwise be spending on diving doesn't make a lot of sense in your case.

[Jim Lapenta]

Master Diver is not a course. It is a card that says you did a prescribed number of courses. Under the PADI system anyway.

Dive Master is the first "pro level" course and is the first step to teaching diving.

SEI has an actual Master Diver course that I am in the process of teaching now to a student. It will take most of the summer and much will be classroom.
Under our system (SEI) Master Diver is a rating that denotes instructor level skills and knowledge but minus the teaching component. It requires exemplary skills, and as stated instructor level knowledge as well as free diving skills.

[doctormike]

I agree with mathauck 100%. Training is great, and I think that every diver should take the rescue course. However, it is not the same as diving experience.

Also, although it may be within guidelines, I don't think that someone with less than 50 dives should be training to become a divemaster. A divemaster really is acting as a teaching professional, and has responsibility for other divers. Some issues, topics and problems you just don't understand fully until you have lived them underwater...

[jewelofnile69]

The dive master course is really for those who intend to become instructors and work in the industry. If that's not you, then don't bother with the dive master course. It won't do anything to make you a better or safer diver.

PADI's master diver course is not a course at all, but rather a recognition that you've completed the three centerline sport diver certifications and five specialties. Other agencies have a master diver program that does have course material that is valuable (the NAUI one, in my opinion, is actually worthwhile). Otherwise you're just trading your money for a piece of plastic that doesn't mean anything to anyone - despite PADI's marketing.

My opinion is that you should spend your money on diving rather than on training - at <50 dives you've learned more than you've put into practice. Go on a trip and rip out ~30 dives in a week, come back and knock down another 100-200 locally in your great lakes. Have some failures, deal with some emergencies and build your confidence as a diver. By the time you're a few hundred dives in, you should have a pretty solid idea of the type of diving you'd like to progress into - then spend some money on additional training (if you need it).

Feeding the PADI machine with dollars you could otherwise be spending on diving doesn't make a lot of sense in your case.

Master Diver is not a course. It is a card that says you did a prescribed number of courses. Under the PADI system anyway.

Dive Master is the first "pro level" course and is the first step to teaching diving.

SEI has an actual Master Diver course that I am in the process of teaching now to a student. It will take most of the summer and much will be classroom.
Under our system (SEI) Master Diver is a rating that denotes instructor level skills and knowledge but minus the teaching component. It requires exemplary skills, and as stated instructor level knowledge as well as free diving skills.

I agree with mathauck 100%. Training is great, and I think that every diver should take the rescue course. However, it is not the same as diving experience.

Also, although it may be within guidelines, I don't think that someone with less than 50 dives should be training to become a divemaster. A divemaster really is acting as a teaching professional, and has responsibility for other divers. Some issues, topics and problems you just don't understand fully until you have lived them underwater...

Thanks, gentlemen for your input! As (at least this time) we don't want to be instructors, it makes sense than not to take the divemaster course. I also see what you are saying about the master scuba course. I'm all for doing a bunch of dives on a trip (I'd live in Bonaire if I could) so that sounds more like a plan than paying to dive. Again, thanks for the input!

[mala]

the cost depends on how the shop sells the courses.

from aow to master diver requires you to do 5 courses and have 50 dives.

divemaster is just 1 course.

if you have already completed some specialites then you are part way to being able to apply for the master diver cert and to complete it would be less money.

[muzikbiz22]

When you become a Divemaster, you become a "professional" diver, whether you ever make a dime of money at it, or not. And for that, you now need Liability insurance for $300 a year, whether you ever make a dime of money at it, or not. And as a Divemaster, you now have to be careful who you casually dive with. If you dive with a group of friends/people and something bad happens to someone else, I can almost guarantee it's going to be "your fault". Welcome to the world in which we live. Should you decide to do the Divemaster program, you WILL become a better diver. FWIW, I enjoy being a Divemaster

[requin02]

Switch to cmas and do your 3* after your rescue, you will see another way to dive that will broaden your experience if you dont want to go into teaching scuba. Saturation dives rock ^^.

r.

[Jim Lapenta]

When you become a Divemaster, you become a "professional" diver, whether you ever make a dime of money at it, or not. And for that, you now need Liability insurance for $300 a year, whether you ever make a dime of money at it, or not. And as a Divemaster, you now have to be careful who you casually dive with. If you dive with a group of friends/people and something bad happens to someone else, I can almost guarantee it's going to be "your fault". Welcome to the world in which we live. Should you decide to do the Divemaster program, you WILL become a better diver. FWIW, I enjoy being a Divemaster

I don't know who told you that about having to have liability insurance if you are not working as a DM. Anyone can take the DM class and get a DM cert (unfortunately) but if you are not actually working as a DM you do not need the insurance. If you are simply diving with friends all you need to do is make it clear that you are not in charge, not the leader, and not the organizer and just there to dive there is no issue. When it becomes an issue is when someone with a DM cert puffs up their chest and loudly proclaims to be a DM and that they know what they are doing. When they agree to lead the dive, organize the dive, and act like they are in charge they put themselves in a position to be sued if something goes wrong. Just getting a DM cert for the knowledge and not keeping active doesn't expose one to any more risk than taking any other specialty does. Attitude, actually working, and agreeing to be responsible puts you in hot water.

I carry waivers in my log book for ops that might ask me to watch over newer divers. If that happens the diver will sign a waiver and the op will comp me the trip or my answer is no. Saying that relieves me of any professional responsibility. I will obey my moral and ethical ones and if someone is in trouble of course I will help. But I'm not setting myself up for it off the get go. That would be stupid.

Saying someone will become a better diver by becoming a DM is misleading as some DM programs are focused on turning out future instructors and that does not necessarily mean better divers. Tech training after rescue, Fundies, Essentials, tailored non cert classes with independent instructors coupled with lots of diving will make you a better diver. That is dang near guaranteed as making it through those means surviving some tough challenges, learning theory that many recreational instructors do not know, and having to perfect your skills for real world dives outside of classes.

[muzikbiz22]

I don't know who told you that about having to have liability insurance if you are not working as a DM. Anyone can take the DM class and get a DM cert (unfortunately) but if you are not actually working as a DM you do not need the insurance. If you are simply diving with friends all you need to do is make it clear that you are not in charge, not the leader, and not the organizer and just there to dive there is no issue. When it becomes an issue is when someone with a DM cert puffs up their chest and loudly proclaims to be a DM and that they know what they are doing. When they agree to lead the dive, organize the dive, and act like they are in charge they put themselves in a position to be sued if something goes wrong. Just getting a DM cert for the knowledge and not keeping active doesn't expose one to any more risk than taking any other specialty does. Attitude, actually working, and agreeing to be responsible puts you in hot water.

I carry waivers in my log book for ops that might ask me to watch over newer divers. If that happens the diver will sign a waiver and the op will comp me the trip or my answer is no. Saying that relieves me of any professional responsibility. I will obey my moral and ethical ones and if someone is in trouble of course I will help. But I'm not setting myself up for it off the get go. That would be stupid.

Saying someone will become a better diver by becoming a DM is misleading as some DM programs are focused on turning out future instructors and that does not necessarily mean better divers. Tech training after rescue, Fundies, Essentials, tailored non cert classes with independent instructors coupled with lots of diving will make you a better diver. That is dang near guaranteed as making it through those means surviving some tough challenges, learning theory that many recreational instructors do not know, and having to perfect your skills for real world dives outside of classes.

Jim,

I would like to clarify/reply to some of your comments, diplomatically of course While I do not know you personally, I do know that you are a frequent poster and very knowledgeable about this thing we all love, Diving. Not my intention to "start a war" here;

I DO have insurance because I am in fact, an active DM.

You are correct in that a non-practicing/pro DM does not need insurance, HOWEVER, in a society where "anyone can sue anybody for anything", it makes perfect sense to have. Just my opinion. As to "who told me", I can tell you it was advised/urged/suggested/recommended by almost every Instructor, Captain, PADI Professional, Deckhand, Divemaster, Shop Owner, Public Safety Diver, Attorney, Cop, Dive Op owner/Operator I know. If PADI holds a DM to a higher standard, then so will some dingbat looking to get anything he can from anyone.

When I dive for fun, I do in fact let everyone know that is with me, that I am a buddy/fellow diver, and am not in charge of the group, be it 1 other person or however many. Makes perfect sense to do so. HOWEVER, "anybody can sue anyone for anything". When we all set foot on a dive boat, we all sign a waiver that we will not sue the boat, its' proprietor, etc. What's the first that that happens when "something goes wrong", regardless of fault, circumstances, etc. The boat gets sued ! There's a million ways to slice & dice it up, but again, people will sue for anything. Even after signing a waiver, entering at one's own risk, etc.

Did going through and passing the Divemaster Program make me a better diver ? Absolutely. My particular class was mostly cops, and our instructor did not hold back. It was "all 5's or bust" When we completed the class, and were presented with our DM cards, certificates, and ceremonial hand-shake, one of the first questions I was asked by our instructor was, "Do you feel you are a better diver ? " I agree that just because one is a DM, does not make them a better diver. Heck, the same can said about Tech Divers. I've seen plenty of ego's there. I also agree that just diving, you progressively become a better diver. I dive almost every week, as well as do a significant amount of dive travel.

FWIW, I am not a chest-pounder. I'm way to smart to be cocky with diving. I take nothing for granted, as I often dive solo, as well. I too will always help a fellow diver in need, bound by morals and ethics.

Anyways, just my 2 cents here.