Re: Possible CCR Rebreathers to look into???!!!

[Scubakid]

To all of you CCR experts out there!!??.

I have just done the unthinkable. Yeap, I think so. I have just made the decision to sell my OC Scuba gear, which I already have, to start saving up for a CCR Rebreather.

I had been thinking about doing this for quite some time and I figured why not start now. To advise you, I have (and yes I am aware that I will be receiving lots of riff-raff about this) over 50 dives. I had been thinking about doing the NITROX Course but then I started reading this particular thread and I have become VERY interested in this CCR stuff. So I figured why not learn all that I can before going into making this purchase so I will possibly be ready to take the plunge in a different area of Scuba Diving.

I presently do all of my diving in British Columbia and as you are all aware it is a somewhat difficult area to dive in due to the cold, brrrrrrrrrr, waters here. Of course I have become quite accustomed to using dry suits and so on. Anyway to make this long boring story short I would like to get some -professional- feedback from you. I have started to save a pretty good amount of money to be able to purchase a CCR rebreather within (possibly?) the beginning of next year.

I have read lots of info on different types of Rebreathers, and their uses, and have absolutely have come to the decision that the CCR would be it. However, with all of the positives/negatives and of course lots of misinformation written regarding the use of Rebreathers I seem that it will be a tough decision to make.

I have been "aiming" towards the PRISM TOPAZ as it seems that it has all of the best features for a CCR Rebreather. To boot it is somewhat light weight when compared to other models listed. However, with this being said, I seem to have seen and/or read that O.M.G. should be coming out with their NEMESIS ina "short" while whatever a short while means to them.

Would you all be able to give me some kind of feedback of what would be a good choice between these two models?

And yes you can and I expect to receive some professional opinions and I would be very thankful for them.

Regarding the INSPIRATION,as I am sure that I will get some feedback on this model, I prefer not to relegate it as a choice due to the number of accidents with it. Too many "unquestioned" issues with it.

Thanks to you all.

Scubakid:bang:

[DrySuitDave]

There has been over 5000 Inspiration units sold, so whatever you are reading is based upon it being far more used than any other rebreather. One of the things you will not see is number of accidents correlated to the number of units. You MUST take this into account. As an example jumbo jets are fare more dangerous than experimental fighter jets, as more people have died in jumbo jets. Let's take that faulty logic and carry it to it's conclusion: Males are remarkably more likely to experience pro football NFL accidents than females.

The Inspiration is regulalry used on extremely deep, very technical trimix and heliox dives. Look at a list of the deaths on Inspirations and the reports. I don't recall one due to equipment failure.You will find some awfully stupid mistakes. As an example, guys who fail to turn their units on, guys who recalibrate their oxygen sensors UNDERWATER, etc. I can kill myself remarkably faster in my car or in my hanglider or sailplane than I can with my Inspiration.

The Prism is a good unit. If it were used like the Inspiration, you would statistically see far more deaths just like more people have been killed in Pinto and Volkswagon bug cars than Rolls Royce Silver Shadows.

I do not do decompression or deep dives. From a logistical standpoint, open circuit is far less demanding and easier. I dive with a CCR for something different and demanding for a change of pace after 30 years of OC. OC i slighter in my personal exerience and it seems as if I take less stuff when doing open circuit.

On boat dives, spending more than 90 minutes in one spot is usually a waste of time, you are going to see whatever is there in less time usually. Getting on and out of OC BC's is easier than a CCR, especially when you have a slick BC and compare it to a CCR with an over the shoulder counterlung.

Now before I talk you out of it, I have less decompression obligations should I want to stay down deeper and or longer on multiday trips. If I were diving tropical, I would probably want to stay down longer of which my CCR will allow me to do that.

I am extremely happy with my Inspiration, and am quite glad I chose that unit. I do wish the unit was smaller, but the Evolution from AP Valves will solve that if they would just enlarge the scrubber to something longer than a 2 hour standard rating. I do like the smaller size and weight of the Prism. There are advantages and disadvantages over the other between the Inspiration and the Prism, but both are nice. There is a huge aftermarket for the Inspiration which drives improvements and allows customization- I like that.

Shortly there will be a US distributor for the Inspiration although service speed has always been excellent from AP even though based in the UK.

I don't know the type of diving you do, so allow me to ask, why do you want one? The trick factor is a perfectly good reason, it's my excuse, but what do you need one fore compared to OC?

I do believe it would be a good idea to get some more dives under your belt so you are utterly comfortable with everything underwater with OC. They say that there is no crossover of OC skills to rebreather skills, but I disagree-some instructors have noted I was extremely comfortable underwater when diving new on my unit. I still have a very healthy respect for what can happen with a CCR, but the being underwater part doesn't faze me.

There are some excellent characters here who can add some of their concurring and dissenting opinions, like Mike Mad Mole Hawkins, padispro aka Joe, etc. Get a bunch of opinions from guys who have done both OC and CCR-talking CCR shop is a blast as there is so much more to learn compared to OC.

[caveseeker7]

Welcome to the rebreather part of the forum, Scubakid.

As far as the Inspiration is concerned, I agree with DDD, it's a good unit. You're right that there have been several death during it's use. Aside from the ratio calculation, you have to look at the accidents. Unrelated health issues played part in several of them, and user's mistakes in most. I've said it before - nobody blames the car on a drunk driver's accident ... . So far none of the accidents has been traced back to a faulty unit. To read a lot more about them, as well as the Inspiration in general, visit Diver Mole's (aka madmole) website. It's an excellent resource on the subject:

http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/divemole.htm

Another good source on all things Inspiration is the Inspiration and VR3
Forum at ccrinfo:

http://www.ccrinfo.com/forum/index.p...ction=register

As mentioned above, the Evolution will be coming one of these days. It's about two third's of the Inspirations size, running on 2 ltr instead of 3 ltr tanks. As for the scubber's duration (2hrs, 2kg), there is hope. If, or rather when, Bob Howell makes his axial Inspiration scrubber work, he might well do one for the Evolution. It's smaller size and lower weight ought to make the new unit quite popular with divers in the recreational range, more so than the Inspiration.

Another promising CCR is build a lot closer to your location, in Chehalis, WA. It's the Megalodon, and now in a smaller overall size, the Mini Meg. An intresting design with tripple sensor, single computer controls, and several differnt scrubber sizes available. Worth checking out at

http://www.customrebreathers.com

I saw the Nemesis prototype at DEMA. At least I hope it was just a prototype as it looked rather shabby. Even the production Azimuth from OMG doesn't come close in it's finish to either the Inspirations or the two Megalodons I've seen. Check the surrounding posts on issues with that unit.

Don't know what your lecture on the RB/CCR has been so far, but I strongly suggest you read Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreather's". So far the best book on the subject I've read.
There is also an excellent article on the subject floating around the net by Richard Pyle. Can't remember anything by him I've read on RBs that wasn't worth reading.

[madmole]

I'd agree that the Inspiration, Prism and Meg should be on your eval lists

But dont sell the OC stuff yet, 50 dives is nothing and you will need a bit more experiance before making the jump. You will also NEED to do your advanced Nitrox class as this is a pre-requisite for the IANTD and TDI CCR classes

Generally you need to unlean your bouyancy and gas management skills when you swap to CC, BUT all the other skills, like shot lines, navigation and pilotgae, decompression, buddy skills etc need to be at a very high standard before you go CC

In the Inspirtion survey the lowest number of dives anyone has done before swapping was 100, the average was 1000!!!!!

1 full year on OC was the minimum, but again average was 9 years of diving before swapping. The average age of a CC users is also high at 38

Personally I would say look into the units, buy the books and by all means have a try dive or do the class on the unit you prefer, but I would personally suggest you get another season of OC dives in before you jump ship. In that year the cost will also come down and there may be some other (maybe better) units out there

Manuals for the Inpiration available on my site as are reviews of most of the Rebreather books etc

Have fun, and take your time, its a big descision to make

[Scubakid]

Thank you DrySuitDave, Madmole & Caveseeker 7 for all of your input. I truly appreciate it. I will take a look at those sites. However after having read thru pretty much all of the threads, regarding rebreathers, I believe that those were some that I had already "researched". Some of the other I have been thru include these; ambientpressurediving.com, therebreathersite.nl, divenet.com/divematics and many more that it would take me a while to list them all. I am bilingual so of course I have read thru many others in "other" parts of the world...

In reply to Madmole, I think that I have made a huge mistake. You see, I was in such a hurry to sell my OC equipment, after having received a good $ offer, that all of my stuff is not in my possession anymore.

Like I have already mentioned on my earlier post, I had such great interest in this new diving apparatus (CCR) that I figured why not. Not only that, but I believed, from what I had read, that all of the required training, i.e. Nitrox as well as other breathing gases, would actually be done when purchasing the unit.

Oh well, I guess its true when they say live & learn.

Thank you Caveseeker 7 for having mentioned the Megalodon. That is one unit that I had already taken a look at. Now, I do not mean to say this because I am an expert at this, because as you are aware, I am not. But after having taken a "good" look at "those" models from "that" particular manufacturer, they did not impress me. Like I have said I am not a pro at this but I do know what streamlining means in diving and for some reason those units do not seem to be very streamlined.

Now when compared to the PRISM TOPAZ or even the up & coming AP VALVES EVOLUTION thats a different story all together.
They seem to be more thoroughly thought out. But then again that's just my .02cents worth.

Regarding the answer from DrySuitDave. I do agree with what you said. Of course, and that does go with everything, when more equipment is sold the manufacturer will obviously have a probability of more accident occurences. When I was working with The Boeing Co. that seemed to be the case anyway. Granted that it is true that when compared to Airbus the Boeing seemed to have inferior quality.

Well, I kindly thank you all for your expert knowledge and advices. I will keep on saving my $rs to hopefully soon be able to get into this new diving evolution.

At this time I will keep in mind these particular models:

The PRISM TOPAZ
Easier to service since it is manufactured in the good ol' U.S of A. Definitely like the fact that it will be used by the Navy. That means that in the future it would also have, like the Inspiration, lots of mods.
AP VALVES EVOLUTION
I will keep a look out for its release.

Thank you Caveseeker 7 for your input on the O.M.G. products. In my thoughts that would also make it a "somewhat" difficult purchase considering that when "released" it would probably have lots of Gremlins to deal with. Plus product support would also be an issue.

Again I thank you all and look forward to reading Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreather's.

Scubakid
__________________
"HE WHO DARES WINS"

, and on a

[madmole]

Naaaa, if the Navy are the main customers, it means it will not get modified at all (they are not allowed to), there will be less emphasis on selling or supporting the public and the whole unit will be black (a negative safety feature). The Navy's needs and the sports divers need are completely different

A better book than "masterintg rebreathers" is

The Simple Guide To Rebreather Diving
Steve Barsky, Mark Thurlow and Make Ward
Best Publishing Company
ISBN: 0-941332-65-9

Much more too the point and a better explanation of the principle's. The actual unit specifics are secondary to the theory. You will learn more from this than Bozanic's

Bozanic's book has a major flaw, in that it completely ignores the best selling and most popular unit on the market. One that has sold more units than all the others added together!!!!. Apparently this was because APD wouldn't pay to be included. Bozanic's book is less a theory and principles book, more a reference book of the unit it covers. Nearly half of it, is checklists etc for each unit

[kavka]

I think, that if you want to do this bad enough, you should go for it. Here in Slovenia is only one man I know who is diving RB (SCR). I dont intend to spend so much money and RB, so I decided to build my own. At first I was thinking about SCR, but I'll go for manual adition CCR. Probably I'll later ad kiss valve. I already have most of the parts except electronics, so I'll try it as O2 rb at first. It will be finished in 2 months.
I also have only 100 dives, but I'll go for it.

[Scubakid]

Thank you madmole for your knowledge, and help. Will certainly go and put that particular,

The Simple Guide To Rebreather Diving

, book on order.

And yes, Madmole, now that I think about it, what you are saying about the PRISM and the Navy is true. Sorry for that. I must not have been thinking straight. Does make sense.

I will definitely continue to learn all that I can about this subject. Hopefully while doing this, AP VALVES might possibly complete the evolution of the EVOLUTION which will give the option to have (2) decent systems to choose from, IMOO. With this being said, I truly hope that in order for them to come out with a really good product, apvalves will take the opportunity to take a good hard look at the Prism, with its design of the Radial Flow Scrubber including its capacity and not rush things just to get a smaller unit out there.

I guess we will just have to see, eh? =-)



Kavka,

Thanks for your feedback. For sure. This is something I really look forward to doing. Funny how things work though. Two months ago all that I wanted to do was to dive using OC. After reading this DARNED THREAD I decided to try to sell my OC equipment and go for it. Now that I have sold it I just cannot wait to learn all that I can about rebreathers and go and purchase one. Of course if I could do it that easily I would probably own one already. I guess I will just have to wait until the beginning of next year

Good for you. Sounds like you are on your way. Make sure that you keep YOUR safety in close consideration?

Scubakid

[madmole]

Dont hold your breath on the Evolution. The first units were made over a year ago, and its been shown at several shows, but its still not CE approved and in my opnion its at least a year away from market. Its really a , it was never really intended for the masses

Scrubber duration of 3 hours is more than enough, how many 3 hour dives have you done so far??? there will be alternate scrubbers available for the Inspiration fairly soon

I know you've said its too big, but the Inspiration is a very good unit and is the most popular unit in the world by a very large margin, ask yourself why is this?. Its the same weight as a 15l with a pony

Dont rule it out until youve actually tried one in the pool.

[Scubakid]

Hi Madmole;

Thanks for the info.

After doing research, still have lots to do, and having taken the opportunity to read Martin Parker's info regarding the Inspiration I might follow your guide and start an Inspiration TRUST fund.

Doing so will allow me plenty of time of SCUBABOARD reading and of course will afford me the occasion to learn all that I possibly can.

Hey while on this topic I should make a note in saying that this, SCUBABOARD, is sincerely the BEST SCUBA related forum in the World. Much praise should go to the people that make this happen.

I also use the RODALE'S site and I can honestly say that it does not even come close to this forum. Keep up the GREAT work.

SCUBAKID