Welcome to ScubaBoard, an online scuba diving forum community where you can join over 205,000 divers diving from around the world. If the topic is related to scuba diving, this is the place to find divers talking about it. To gain full access to ScubaBoard (and make this large box go away) you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
Participate in over 500 dive topic forums and browse from over 5,500,000 posts.
Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
Post your own photos or view from well over 100,000 user submitted images.
Gain access to our free classifieds marketplace to buy, sell and trade gear, travel and services.
Use the calendar to organize your events and enroll in other members' events.
Find a dive buddy or communicate directly with scuba equipment manufacturers.
All this and much more is available to you absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact the ScubaBoard Support Team.
[QUOTE=Gilldiver;4752656]I would also like to know just how far from the tank valve your design is. In this photo you see the nozzle with a yoke and using the Aqualung Din adapter. The distance with the nozzle/Yoke is 1.75" and with the DIN converter is 2.75". As you are using the same Aqualung yoke as the nozzle, you should also see the same 1" increase in spacing when using the reg as a DIN, but hwat is your base distance as a yoke?
Originally Posted by Gilldiver
The concept looks good, the only thing I don't like about it is the route of the BC LP inflator. Right now the port is at 11 O'clock as viewed from behind, and sends the hose up and through the breathing hose loop. I just don't like hoses that go above my head. Would the design allow for a reposition of the port to 9 o'clock so that the Lp hose comes out at the shoulder and can be bunggied to the BC inflator?
The main problem with the PRAM is clocking, which you solve by replacing the body, and avalibility. The production costs are such that Bryan just can't make all that many at one time. Your buisness plan will need to look at up front tooling and invintory costs vs sale price and ROI.
Below are 5 photos: One shows the distance from the can to the valve...your photo shows the distance from the base of the 1st stage body to the valve......from the can it is probably a 1/8 inch longer.........the Mk3 measures about 1 3/8 inches from the can to the valve.
When I designed this, I was not sure if the 11 oclock LP hose position would interfer with the return air hose......in the photo of the second test dive, this hose was too long, almost 29 inches....I had forgotten my short hose.
Any bc hose 22 to 25 inches will be lower and come over and velcroed to the bc as I like and I suspect you perfer too; however, I suspected some would prefer to route the bc hose outside the return reg hose..........thus I had the 4th port on the left at the 9:30 position....see that photo below.
For guys up to say 5'8" a 22-26 inch hose at 11 oclock will work fine......taller men or men with long torsos will need a longer hose.........most of my bc hoses can be shortened as needed. I presume others can do the same or buy a short bc hose.....or they can use the 9:30 LP port.
Availabilty will limited on mine too.........like I stated earlier in this post, this is just a step in my quest to build a new regulator.....I made 20 prototypes....two which are given to evaluators, four I am keeping for my and my sons DA & RAMs, that leaves 14 of this first run.......I will produce 78 more if there is any demand, otherwise I will use this stock next year to prototype the Mk4.....(note: while the Mk4 has the same poppet valving internally, it will not be compatable to the RAM or DA can........
This reg I am developing will be of limited production as well, custom regs if you like, 500 to 1000 a year or until they catch on and demand increases world wide.
My goal is to sell this new reg. for under $500.00 God willing.
I've have a few emails regarding when will I have these for sale:
The cost of finishing these right now is holding me up. Chroming and procurement of the internal parts is the reason. I am thinking that perhaps if there are at least 10 people interested and they are willing to put up a $100 dollar deposit I can finish these sooner than I was expecting. This deposit is for either kit order.
After I have 10 names I will accept the deposits.
When the Mk3 multi-port bodys are ready to ship, I will notify the ten for final payment. NOTE: I only have 14 available this first go around.
I will accept reservations from overseas as well.
Email me at "firstname.lastname@example.org" if you want one. I will provide you payment instructions at that time.
My sincere aplogies to OldMossback Michael for this belated evaluation. As he knows, severe computer issues prevented me from doing this sooner.
The Mossback Mk3 regulator he sent me is a beautiful piece of kit. It is designed to replace both the body and nozzle of a U.S.Divers (USD) DA Aqua Master (DAAM) or Royal Aqua Master (RAM). It uses the replaceable HP hard seat used in the USD Titan regulator. All of the internals of the RAM 1st and 2nd stages can simply be swapped over to the Mk3, though it is advisable to use a new HP seat upon initial assembly. I understand that new HP nozzle internal parts may be available as an option upon purchase.
One of the main advantages of this regulator over the original USD designs is the presence of one HP and four LP ports. Their positioning seems very well thought out, with the HP port positioning the SPG down and to the left, and one LP port out to the left, one at about 11 o'clock, one out to the right, and another down to the right. The LP ports are standard 3/8", and the HP port is 7/16" to accomodate standard HP hoses.
This regulator only adds about 1/8" to the length of the assembled regulator as compared to a RAM. My best measurements from the back of the top can to the face of the nozzle show the RAM as being 1.21", and the Mk3 as 1.34", for an approximate difference of .130" (.125" being 1/8"). Photos below will show how each fits within a backpack.
The Mk3 weighs nearly one pound heavier than the body/nozzle of a RAM or DAAM, so the diver can go a pound lighter around his waist.
The IP holds consistently rock solid at the recommended 135-140 psi with a good 2nd stage spring. It breathed exceptionally well, on a par with, if not better than, a Royal AM. I was able to dive it to 50+ ft and noticed no difference from it's excellent shallow water breathing characteristics.
This modification is perfect for photographers or any diver desiring to get those exhaust bubbles away from the face and ears (Dive a double hose regulator and try going back; You WILL notice how obnoxious those bubbles really are!), as well as any diver desiring to experience double hose diving but wishing to accomodate the modern safety appliances such as a BC and octopus. As a USD double hose regulator improvement which is compatible with backpack diving and yet able to satisfy the auxiliary air source requirements of most dive boat operators, the Mossback Mk3 gets a big four out of four flippers vote from this evaluator. My hat's off to Michael Story for coming through with a superb design. He has kept me abreast of the Mk3's development from concept to prototype to test model. I respect his steady devotion to the project and his determination in seeing it through. I look forward to seeing the finished products being used by divers very soon. I am certain the proud owners will be exceedingly pleased with their brand new Mossback Mk3 regulators.
Mossback Mk3 with doubles and backpack.
Mossback Mk3 showing backpack clearance. It fits perfectly- not tight at all with my test setup.
Comparative photo of RAM.
Last edited by duckbill; October 21st, 2009 at 12:36 AM.
You know, I have read all of the comments given to you over the (now 3 pages long) thread and except for Duckbill it would seem that you were just another politician running up the national debt.
Why wouldn't you want to make a better mouse trap? I learned on a Mistral back 1962 and I have never gotten used to bubbles. But diving a stock DA or RAM as we all know isn't practical these days, just try to convince a Dive Master that you will be ok. I even bought a Mistral 2, I know it isn't the best attempt, but at least they'l let it on the boat. So for all of the reasons that have been stated I haven't gone the Phoenix route yet. I want the low profile better mouse trap, I dive DIN and I want it to mount where it works best, down low in the same place that Cousteau told us to put it.
Now we will see how many (better mouse traps) you sell, I'll take one please.
I will PM you for details.
Thanks for all the effort.
I think this is a good Idea. I already have a Vintage Mistral, a royal master, DAAM, DAAM with Pheonix, and Faux 50 Mistral. I am going for one of these also. I cant wait for his MK 4. You just can't have to many Double hose regs, they all have thier attributes, and are fun to dive. Just my 2-cents
Just a heads up.
Looks like they are plated and ready to go. They look really nice. There are still a few left for those who want to upgrade some of their US Divers or Voit two-stage double hose regulators.
I have had my first dive on my MB Mod 3 regulator today. It was is the Clackamas River, and it was a great dive. That is a mighty fine regulator. I will describe the dive a bit later, but it's early afternoon here, the sun's out, and I need to attend to chores.
Later in the evening:
Well, I have a bit of time now, and so will describe the dive with the Mossback Mk 3 Aquamaster. I had it set up on my double 45s, with a Sherwood valve (2 posts). I have a Calypso second stage mounted on the Mk 3 for my safe second, and on the other post I put a very old, vintage Calypso (all metal, with the exhalation valve on the diaphragm). So basically I had two safe seconds. I had an LP inflator hose for my ParaSea BC too. I dove a full wetsuit, complete with hood, boots and gloves (the reason apparent in the next paragraph). The Mk 3 was mounted centrally, below the valve height for nice breathing.
I dove the Clackamas River today, as we have had over a week of very nice, sunny weather (much to the chagrin of the Vancouver Winter Olympics). This has made the river here very clear (15 feet plus visibility), but cold (probably around 38 degrees F). The river was not terribly high, but high enough to submerge the island that is normally at the High Rocks area just above the top hole. The current was pretty fast, coming in and making a whirlpool just below where I entered. I had thought about entering below this area, but then decided I'd just swim through it and into a pool on the other side.
At the river's edge, I found two rocks situated so that it was relatively easy to sit down with my doubles on the rock, put on my fins and then my mask, helmet (with snorkel--it's yellow for visibility with florescent yellow tape on it). I set my Seiko watch, and put the mouthpiece in my mouth. After taking a few breaths, I submerged and swam out into the current. The current was running between 4 and 8 knots (quite fast in places). I swam on the surface through the whilepool, then submerged to the bottom with a surface dive on the other side. I got down and decided it was great visibility. The bottom was rock, with some very large rocks where I could shelter from the current. This I did, and relaxed to decide how the Mk 3 was doing. The breathing was effortless, but not blowing through to the exhaust. It gave me exactly what I needed. I was fairly deep, at about 23 feet (deep for the river), and so blew a bit of air into my BC. I drifted with the current for a minute, then swam against it (about 3 knots at the bottom. The Mk 3 gave me all the air I needed on exertion with almost no effort.
I then switched to my Calypso second stage, which had come loose from my BC (I have a pocket on the Para-Sea BC for an octopus)--the hose was just a bit too short. The Calypso metal second stage (third generation) breathed just like it was hooked up to a Titan first stage--which it actually was, as that is what the MB Mk 3 uses for a first stage. I switched back to the double hose mouthpiece, and cleared it with no problem, rolling to get all the water out of the exhaust. I continued drifting downstream.
After about five minutes (going fairly fast) I decided to make a maximum effort against the current to see how the regulator performed. I was able to make a bit of headway in the high current, but only by holding onto rocks embedded in the bottom and going hand-over-hand upstream. The Mk 3 performed very well, with no "starvation" for air at maximum exertion. I was at about 15 feet for these efforts.
I let go, and continued my drift. Looking up, I saw the bridge above me, which is a pedestrian bridge. The last time I saw it from underwater last fall, it had streams of rain water running off and splashing on the surface--an interesting sight from underwater. Today, in bright sunshine, it was a shadow on the bottom. I knew that my exit was coming up soon. I surfaced to see where I was, and noted I was almost to the exit. So I began swimming toward the exit on the side of the river from the bottom.
Then I saw just upstream from me a "D" ring that someone had dropped, and I wanted to grab it. I got to the bottom, and tried swimming upstream to get to it. I was going as fast as I could, and not making much headway. So I grabbed at some rocks, but most of them were not solidly tied to the bottom. Then I found an "L" shaped piece of iron, grabbed it, and thrust it forward to the "D" ring. The iron went through the "D" ring, and I turned it over to bring it to me. Taking it off the iron, I discarded the iron and put the "D" ring into my BC pocket. I had it!
In the current, the MB Mk 3 performed extremely well. My only complaint is that I have a new silicone mouthpiece on it, and it is pretty soft. In the current, that mouthpiece actually bent a bit and because of the soft bite was somewhat difficult to keep in my mouth. But that wasn't the Mk 3, but my new mouthpiece that was a slight problem (distorting a bit in the high current).
I swam to the side, surfaced and looked up. There was a walker watching me from the pedestrian path above me, and a guy with a dog below. As I found a foothold and stood up, the guy with the dog left, but the fellow above me stayed. I waved, and he waved back. It took me a couple of minutes to get my fins off, find my footing and exit the water. As I came up to the path, there was a guy there (I think the same one), and he and I talked a bit. I told him that I was testing a new regulator, and he talked a bit about Jacques Cousteau, saying that "if it wasn't for an accident, Cousteau would have been flying rather than diving. I wonder what he could have done of aviation if he had gone that route." I told him that a car accident changed the course of history for diving (he was obviously a diver), and we talked a bit about equipment. Then he continued his walk, and with twin 45s on my back and 22 pounds of lead on my waist, I couldn't keep up with him.
I walked back to my car with the satisfaction of having successfully put the MB MK 3 through a pretty rough dive, even if it was short at about 17 minutes total. I started with about 1600 psig, and ended with 750 psig, for a use of 850 psig on the dive. I'll do some calculations and add them later tonight here:
That's about 71 liters per minute. Since I have a vital capacity of 5 liters, but probably only use 3.5 liters per breath, that's about 15-20 breaths per minute. So I was exercising fairly heavily to get that usage rate.
It as a great dive, first of the year for me in open water. I think I have a new "best performing double hose regulator," the Mossback Mk 3. It is right there, or better than, my highly modified Trieste II, and has all the abilities of the Trieste II too (more LP ports and a HP port).
One measure of a double hose regulator is it's negative pressure breathing--how that affects the diver. Usually, inhalation breathing under negative pressure is a diuretic (make one produce more urine). This is a characteristic of most double hose regulators because of both the position in the water column in relation to the lungs, and the inhalation resistance of the regulator. I almost always have to get to the McDonald's Restaurant near the dive site, buy a small hamburger (not the big greasy ones), and use their restroom post-dive. But today, I brought a banana and a Coke to drink on the drive back to Beaverton, as I did not have time to stop--there was a critical budget meeting at my church. I went there in my swim trunks to vote, which is neither here nor there. But I didn't need to stop for a rest stop. While this is a rather subjective means of ascertaining the effectiveness of a regulator, it shows that for me the Mk 3 did not have a diuretic effect, unlike most of my double hose regulators.
I've been called an "old Coot." Well, that would be the American Coot (Fulica americana ) or mud-hen, and I've done my share of mucking around in low visibility, so it applies. But, you're never too old to learn something new.
John, that Mk3 is a really great design. Mine dives like a dream. I mentioned it over on VSS how I love that the whole unit can be swapped out back and forth with the stock body/nozzle assembly, and all the adjustments stay the same. The reg fits my backpacks just fine, too (when I even dive a backpack).
I wish Mossback would put some photos of the finished, plated product here for divers to drool over. This should also be announced over on the underwater photography forum since they would really benefit from the exhaust bubbles coming out behind the head and camera.