IP not locking up on Flathead VI

[elan]

I've got my regulator serviced last summer and few dives after the service during the pre-dive check I have noticed that the reg was free flowing few seconds after the valve was turned on. I had moved at that moment from the place where the service shop was so I could not take it back to the shop to check and fix but I checked the IP and it was not locking up, eventually raising up to the point where the second stage was opening and releasing the pressure, I was not using it for a couple of months then was diving again and it was working fine, some time later it was doing the same , the pressure would not lockup .

I was thinking to take it back for a service to another tech but ... Few days ago I picked up my another Flathead that I left for a service few weeks ago and took it for a dive today.
I checked the IP of the second serviced reg and although it was not locking up as beautifully as my USD DAAM but I once was told that it is normal for zeagles.
After the dive I checked the IP and it was drifting! It would slowly go over the IP and a minute later the second stage would start dumping the air.

Those 2 regs were serviced by 2 different people and they are two different regs. I'm kind of lost now. My first one is still leaking and the second does the same, I'm planning to take it to the tech to see but before was thinking to ask if anyone had anything similar and may be there is a trick with Flatheads that those techs are not aware of.

Both shops are Apeks service techs and they said they can do Zeagles as they are similar to Apeks, this kind of made me suspicious but I thought they knew what they were doing

 

[halocline]

To me, IP creep and IP drift are two indications of either a badly serviced (or in need of service) or badly designed regulator. In fact, holding a steady IP is exactly what a first stage is supposed to do, and the speed/reliability/consistency of IP lock up is the primary way I judge a first stage. So, the fact that you have two zeagles not locking up well is a little surprising given the good reputation that they have. As far as it being 'normal' for zeagles, I can pretty well bet that anyone from zeagle would not agree that it's 'normal' for their regs to creep or drift. Just to be clear, creep is when the IP slowly goes up when the reg is pressurized, sometimes to the point where the 2nd stage will freeflow. Drift is when the reg does lock up, but does so at inconsistent IP. You press the purge, it dips normally, then comes back up to a different IP each time. Is that what you're experiencing?

IME, DA aquamasters are slight but annoying creepers and drifters, so if your zeagle is worse than one of those, you have a problem. Royal aquamasters lock up beautifully; the RAM seat is a real winner. So, if yours is a RAM, that's very different from a DA.

The cause of IP creep is always some sort of leak; in a balanced diaphragm there are only a couple of possible spots. The usual suspect is a leak at the HP seat/orifice mating surface, either a worn seat or damaged orifice edge. Another possibility is the balance chamber; there's a tiny o-ring that keeps HP air out of the IP chamber. Occasionally you'll find a reg where the tech has scratched the balance chamber removing that tiny o-ring, and you'll have a slow but consistent leak even with a new seat.

Drift is a little harder to diagnose, because I believe it's pretty frequently caused by inconsistency in the main spring, at least in older regs, although the typical problem is inconsistency in the HP seat surface. With balanced piston regs, I've also found that a softer o-ring in the HP piston area combined with a less-than-perfect piston edge can cause some drift in my MK10s. I find it a bit annoying, but not a big deal as it's only a few PSI. I've also seen MK10s creep about 5-7PSI over about a minute, and still work great. The amount and rate of creep is the indicator of the problem; something like 10PSI in a few seconds is really severe and I'd never dive with a reg like that.

Good luck, maybe try posting on the zeagle forum and see what they say. I guarantee you it won't be "oh, that's normal"!

 

[elan]

Thanks halocline, you definitely know yor stuff. I just double checked it and I do in fact have a RAM not DAAM. So this was what I compared my zeagles to.
So comparing them to how RAM locks up they creep more but in no way more that 5-7 psi overall when they were working properly.

What I was describing was way off.

Anyways I decided to drop off the newly services reg at the shop in the morning and the guy checked the reg and confirmed the leak in the HP seat. He put the old seat (the plastic orifice?) that I had before just replacing the o-ring and said the reg was locking up perfectly.

So this just confirms that this is not an inherit issue of the reg and are just 2 isolated cases.

What is the life expectancy of such a seat? Should I keep this one (its 2 years old) or ask him to install a new one i would probably keep it as it is broken in and works properly. All the orings are new.

I have no idea though why the new seat started leaking.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Hi elan,

I'm glad you got the problem sorted out.

Halocline gave a terrific answer, and I'll just add a little (I own and service a couple Zeagle Flathead VI's).

Zeagle says that up to 7 psi creep max is still "ok"... 3 psi in the in the first 3 seconds after lockup, and no more than an additional 4 psi in 5 minutes. But no more than 7 psi, and no more than 145 psi at "final" lockup.

However:

My 2 Flathead VI's lockup as if they've hit a brick wall. Near-instant recovery of IP after purging, Zero creep, and always a solid lockup at the exact same pressure I set them to during servicing (135 psi).... and it has been over 3 years since I last rebuilt them. I'd guess this is more typical for the Flathead VI's from what I've read in the forums.

A leak at the seat is the most common culprit (as it was in your case). Other possibilities are:

1. Worn or damaged o-rings on the HP seat or on the HP valve stem (could be damaged during assembly);

2. Nick in sealing surface of HP valve (possibly damaged during cleaning or assembly, or defective).

3. Scratch in seating groove for balance plug (balance chamber) o-ring... can be tech-induced problem during service.

This is a REALLY easy regulator to service, but you'll notice in the little list above that if the tech is sloppy with o-ring picks or during assembly, an o-ring or sealing surface can be nicked and a leak results; the end result being an unstable IP.

But, sometimes new seats have small imperfections or defects, and maybe that is what happened in your case.

Best wishes.

 

[elan]

Thanks guys for your great responses, I like the reg - I have 4 of them. I serviced one 1 st stage myself and the stage works great for more than a year and the IP on that stage is stable. As you said the reg is very easy to service.

I think I should keep doing it myself

I know about the posibility of the chamber damage and always use toothpicks to pull that oring out.

LeadTurn do you replace the plastic seat everytime you service them?

 

[Fishpie]

I've had problem number 2 in a couple of Zeagles (not a scratch but a bad o ring)......at one time they used a very soft o ring(s) here, took me swapping out and testing 3 different seats to find the real culprit.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Thanks guys for your great responses, I like the reg - I have 4 of them. I serviced one 1 st stage myself and the stage works great for more than a year and the IP on that stage is stable. As you said the reg is very easy to service.

I think I should keep doing it myself

I know about the posibility of the chamber damage and always use toothpicks to pull that oring out.

LeadTurn do you replace the plastic seat everytime you service them?

Hi elan,

Yes, since it is included in the "annual" service kit, I just replace it; but I inspect the new orifice carefully with a loupe before installing it.

Since Zeagle sells rebuild kits openly, I don't worry much about "re-using" parts like I do in some of my other regs.... since I service at fairly long intervals, I just go ahead replace all the "annual" stuff in my Flathead VI's once I have them torn apart.

With my other regs, I inspect and often reuse parts if they are in good shape.

Best wishes.

 

[divad]

My 2 Flathead VI's lockup as if they've hit a brick wall. Near-instant recovery of IP after purging, Zero creep, and always a solid lockup at the exact same pressure I set them to during servicing (135 psi).... and it has been over 3 years since I last rebuilt them. I'd guess this is more typical for the Flathead VI's from what I've read in the forums.

Same for my Zeagles. Zero creep and solid lockup.

 

[elan]

I got my reg yesterday and took it to the pool. I connected the gauge and what a difference. The IP instanteneously lock up and then raises by no more than 3 psi. It is actually hard to see on the gauge.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

I love a happy ending!

Now go have some fun!

Best wishes.