Potential rig. Comments?

[stuartv]

Short version:

I'm considering buying the following rig (all new, from an authorized dealer): Tusa R-700 1st, 2 x Oceanic Delta 4.1 2nds, Oceanic Pro Plus 2.1 Deluxe (includes QD, data cable, and compass). It would run about $900 plus tax and possibly the cost of a LPI hose.

Thoughts?

Long version:

I have completed OW, Computer Nitrox, and Advanced Buoyancy Control certifications in the last month or so. I plan to dive mostly warm saltwater (FL, Caribbean, etc.). But, I live in Northern VA. My training dives have been/will be in a cold, cloudy quarry.

I thought I would not be able to afford a reg set any time soon but then I got a nice Christmas bonus. Prior to that, I was shopping for just a wrist computer to take with me on an upcoming Caribbean vacation and then rent regs and BC. I know the conventional wisdom on SB is for newbs to rent for a while and try different things. However, I have 2 factors motivating me to go ahead and purchase. One is that I think this rig is a really good price. So good that if I decided to sell it and buy something else later, I probably won't lose a HUGE amount of money. And, really, I figure the PDC will be good to have as a backup, even if I get a Petrel or similar later. And a complete good quality reg set for $450 seems like something I'd probably keep long term anyway, even if it's just as a backup to something else that I buy later.

And the other factor is that my g/f got certified along with me and she is very much on the fence about whether she really wants to Scuba dive or not. She is trying it because she knows I want to do it. And she does love the water and enjoys snorkeling. But, our upcoming trip to the Caribbean is going to be (I think) a make-or-break deal for her. One of the things that happened during our pool and OW checkout dives was that she had some trouble with her reg. The second day in the pool, she switched to her octo because her primary seemed hard to breathe. That may have just been because it was set to Pre-dive and she didn't know enough to switch it to Dive. Or not. I don't know. The point is, I want to do EVERYTHING I can to ensure that her dives on vacation are 100% glitch-free. So, if I go ahead and buy a rig now, I will actually have her use it on our trip and I will use rental gear. The guys at my LDS said that if I really want to sell her on buying a reg set, I should let them tell her about the gear that goes through their service department. They mentioned 2nd stages that people have vomited through that still have little bits of "crust", even though they have been washed out. I think if I even mentioned that to her in the context of a rental reg she would be using she might refuse to dive. My LDS also has some Tusa Selene Wing BCs they are blowing out for $220 and she really liked the one she used in training, so I'm planning to get her one of those as an early Christmas present, to take with us. With that and the reg set and DC I'm looking at, she would have a complete setup to use. If she decides she doesn't like diving, I'll still have the reg set/DC to use and can sell her BC for maybe not too bad of a loss. At $220, the loss CAN'T be TOO bad.

So, I stopped by my LDS on the way home last night. I like the guys there and that is where I have been going for my training. And I guess I’m pretty lucky because, while they are not LeisurePro, I guess they do a pretty brisk online business and have tons of stock in their warehouse right there at the shop. And they do a lot of buying end-of-season gear in bulk and blowing it out for cheap. They are currently offering the SP MK25/S600 Anniv. Ed. set (i.e. the gold one) for $500.

I stopped in thinking to find out from them what a full setup with a second S600, SPG, etc.. would cost. But, after discussing what kind of diving I want to do (which includes possibly more training in the 50-ish degree or maybe even colder, crappy-water quarry), they suggested that I should consider a SP MK17 for my 1^st stage. They said that I won’t notice the difference between it and the MK25 and it is actually certified for cold water use plus being fully sealed means it’s a bit easier maintenance. They said they all use the MK25 and it works fine in the quarry - it's just not actually certified for cold water use. But mainly they emphasized the easier day-to-day maintenance of the MK17. AND, if I want to entertain the MK17, then I should really consider the Tusa R-700 because it’s exactly the same reg and a bit less expensive, at $250.

They also are blowing out Oceanic Delta 4.1 second stages for $92 each. So, that would yield me a 1^st and 2 x 2^nd stages for about $430.

Or, I could spend an extra $162 and get the MK25/S600 with a Delta 4.1 octo, but I’m not convinced that would be money well spent.

I also talked to them about PDCs. They are happy to sell me anything from a $200 Aeris Manta to a Petrel 2. I was originally thinking of getting a wrist computer partly because I wasn’t going to buy a reg set yet – just rent. But, after talking to them, they said that every person who works or teaches for the shop dives with an Oceanic console like the Pro Plus 2.1 though many of them use that as their backup and also have a wrist computer. They are offering the Pro Plus Deluxe (i.e. with QD, data cable, and attached compass) for $450.

So, they’ve got me seriously considering just going ahead and taking the plunge on a Tusa R-700, 2 x Oceanic Delta 4.1, and Oceanic Pro Plus 2.1 Deluxe. All for around $900 plus a LPI hose. I think that would give me everything I need to go diving except for a BC and a tank.

I had previously thought I would go with a HOG D3/Zenith setup, but when I really got into the details of the pricing and checked with a couple of vendors that are members here on SB, I found that the price for that setup would be even more than this Tusa/Oceanic rig I'm considering. And, while I really do appreciate the vendors that are on here, I really like to support my local dive shops when I can. Not to mention the support I will get from them having bought my gear from them and them being authorized dealers (who buy a lot of stock from some of these manufacturers).

Any thoughts on any of this?

Thanks!

 

[tbone1004]

oh my, so, here's my suggestions

That TUSA first stage is a damn good first stage, but I would get the corresponding Tusa second stages over the Oceanics. Makes servicing easier on the whole reg set. That price is actually quite good, but while the Oceanic 2nd's are good, having the same brand reg set does tend to make things easier.
Halcyon Single Tank Regulator System #2 | Extreme Exposure
Another deal that is the MK17 with G260 and R195, has all the hoses and an SPG, and then you get a wrist computer to supplement. More expensive, but it comes out of the Tusa factory and supports a small guy in Florida.

Sealed diaphragms are better, you likely won't be doing what is actually "cold water diving" in your neck of the woods, and it's really the surface air temps that are the problem, not the water temps, but if you're diving in murky stuff, sealed diaphragms are better than pistons, and you won't notice any difference on the first stage anyway.

Tusa RS-790 Regulator, Yoke
That's where I'd go and see if they'll throw in a matching second stage with it, The Scubapro G250V they have on sale is a great deal and a badass little second stage. I don't like Scubapro because they are owned by Jarden, but unfortunately the deal on that is too good to pass up.

Computers are whatever, anything short of a Petrel is not wasting money, but really not a wonderful investment. Get AI if you want, but it's not needed
Aeris Epic Receiver Only w/USB
See if they'll let you upgrade to that, better computer, only $80 more, but more versatile, especially since it's watch style so you can just wear it, and it includes the usb download which is nice.

 

[stuartv]

tbone, thanks!

That Halcyon setup, even at $745 (without SPG, so apples to apples) is simply out of my budget. Particularly when compared to the Tusa/Oceanic rig for $450.

I think the MK17 (or R-700) + G260+R195 setup is still more expensive than I am prepared to spend. Plus, I *think* my recollection is that the R195 2nd is not really up to the level of specification that I want. I would like to have identical 2nds - and, identical or not, both be balanced and diver adjustable. I seem to recall the R195 is neither balanced nor diver adjustable?

I asked the guys at the shop about using the Delta 4 over the Tusa S-90 and basically both the guys I was talking said that they've used both and they just feel like the Delta 4 is a better/nicer 2nd. And they assured me that I'd be able to get the Deltas serviced anywhere I go (i.e. if I'm on vacation and have a reg with a problem). Ditto for the R-700. They can certainly service the Tusa and the Oceanics equally easily. So can you give me a little more detail on why it would be that having Tusa 2nds (with a Tusa 1st) would make having my regs serviced easier? And any other reason you would prefer the S-90 to the Delta 4? One of the reasons (besides price) that I was steering away from the S-90 is that it has a Dive/Surface switch but otherwise is not diver-adjustable.

The links you posted to the RS-790 and the Epic are ironic because that IS the website for my LDS. I was seriously considering getting the Epic, and they would be happy to sell me one. They are trying to unload all their Aeris PDCs. I guess some of the Aeris models (including the Manta and Epic) have had enough problems in the past that it has somewhat tainted the Aeris name for PDSs so now they don't sell worth a hoot. Thus, they are blowing out the Aeris A300 CS OLED, too, to be replaced by the Oceanic VTX which is the exact same computer, with a different brand name on it.

Anyway, they kind of steered me away from the Epic because they have had so many come back. On the plus side, Oceanic replaced several of the ones that came back with Atom 3s, so I'd say those customers made out pretty well overall. Except for any dives they may have lost because of the Epic, of course...

Lastly, one of the guys I was talking to last night is one of the owners of the shop. He was pretty candid that he dives with a MK25 and G260. And, of course, he'd be happy to sell me a setup with those in the config. But, I felt like he was doing well by me to steer me towards some less expensive, but still quality, pieces. I definitely don't have the budget for a MK17 or MK25 + G260. Of course, my pessimist side might say "he was just steering you towards the Delta 4 because he wants to get rid of that pile of old stock." But, I really don't believe that was the case. The Delta 4s seems to be liked fairly well on SB and in other Internet reviews, so at $92, I'm really wondering if there is any other 2nd stage out there that is better (for MY needs) AND worth the difference in price.

 

[TSandM]

You know, there really aren't any BAD regulators out there -- the liability is too high. Although I do kind of agree with the suggestion to keep them all of the same brand, simply because you might run into an issue where a shop can service one but not the other, I don't think you need to spend the money for a high-end regulator, especially given your strategy for buying at this time.

We bought Aqualung Titans as our first regs, and still have them; they are now used only for warm water trips to places that only have yoke tanks (as all the rest of our regs are DIN now), and for students, but they are still absolutely satisfactory regulators, and were one of the few really smart purchases we made out of OW class.

I would advise against buying the console computer setup, but that's because I absolutely loathe consoles. They are big and bulky and less convenient to look at than a wrist computer. And if you are going to lend your GF the reg setup, that's going to leave HER with the computer, so you'll have to use a rental one, which you won't be able to download into a logging program (assuming you are going to do that, as many of us do).

 

[stuartv]

You know, there really aren't any BAD regulators out there -- the liability is too high. Although I do kind of agree with the suggestion to keep them all of the same brand, simply because you might run into an issue where a shop can service one but not the other, I don't think you need to spend the money for a high-end regulator, especially given your strategy for buying at this time.

So, if I (for example) buy all Tusa, then I might run into a shop that can't service any of it? And that's better than the possibility that they can service just the 2nds, but not the 1sts (or vice versa)? I'm asking because I'm ignorant. If I'm on a trip and have an issue is it even remotely likely that I would need to have a 1st AND a 2nd stage serviced? Or is it the kind of thing where a problem might not be clear on whether it stems from the 1st or the 2nd, so you need a shop that can worth on both to properly sort it out?

I would advise against buying the console computer setup, but that's because I absolutely loathe consoles. They are big and bulky and less convenient to look at than a wrist computer. And if you are going to lend your GF the reg setup, that's going to leave HER with the computer, so you'll have to use a rental one, which you won't be able to download into a logging program (assuming you are going to do that, as many of us do).

I am also very NOT keen on having a bulky console. I actually really like the idea of having wireless AI to a wrist computer and having no HP hose at all. But, I've already read PLENTY on here about how bad an idea most of the experts think that is. So, even though my preference would still be to have the smallest console possible (i.e. only a small SPG), with everything else on my wrist(s), I have to face my finances. A decent SPG on a HP hose, plus a reliable wrist computer plus a data cable is going to be a decent chunk of money more expensive than just going with the all-in-one Pro Plus console.

And I do want to log my dives in my computer. I was thinking that with my g/f as my buddy, if she wears the console computer, I could still download the data and use it as my own log. I would know that the air consumption was not right and have to log my own air usage manually. But, for logging for historical purposes, using the data download from her computer should be okay, shouldn't it? Obviously, I would use my own rental computer to know my NDL limits during the actual diving.

I guess I should probably really pose the computer question(s) in the computer forum, not get into that whole discussion here.

 

[halocline]

I would keep it simple, try to spend some time figuring out what gear you want (including trying as much as possible before buying) and then find the best price on that gear, rather than buying something simply because it's presented to you at a discount. Many, many new divers get excited about buying gear right out of OW class and get talked into package "deals". This is one reason there is such a great inventory of good, lightly used gear on the market.

Its true that basically any decent regulator will work absolutely fine for recreational diving. Aqualung titan and SP MK2 are two excellent reasonably pried regulators. There are many others. I'd also avoid mixing brands initially because it might be a little more complicated to get them serviced. You never know. Don't worry about cold water use unless you are getting a dry suit. If not, you probably won't be spending any time in water cold enough to cause problems with a good non-sealed first stage.

I would avoid the computer console, in fact I would spend as little as possible on a dive computer. They all do the same basic task; provide time/depth/N2 loading data. Air integration is a waste of money to me, but lots of people like it. Once you get some dive experience you will find that you only need to check air pressure a few times/dive, whereas you want to be checking time/depth very frequently. This makes a wrist computer without AI very convenient.

I can't really speak for you, but if I got a nice unexpected Christmas bonus, I'd be looking at flights to Cozumel instead of a regulator package!

 

[stuartv]

I already have the flight to Riviera Maya and 3 days of diving booked! w00t! w00t!

The reasons for wanting to buy now are covered in my OP (the Long version part).

---------- Post added December 9th, 2014 at 01:40 PM ----------

In the interest of taking y'all's advice and getting same-brand regs, I read up on the Oceanic FDX10. That seems to have an excellent reputation as a sealed, balanced diaphragm 1st stage. I read the stuff about the Delta 4/FDX being the NOAA Diver cold water standard.

So, it seems like as good a choice as the Tusa R-700? Yes or no?

Bonus is that it looks like I can get the FDX 10 (non-DVT) + 2 x Delta 4s (non-swivel) for even less money than the R-700 + 2 x Delta 4. Like, $50 or more less money.

Any reason I should not go this route?

I still have to make a decision on the computer (console vs wrist) thing. But, I don't think that's for this thread/subforum.

 

[TSandM]

You have a point; it's unlikely you'd have to have all of your setup worked on while you are away somewhere. I honestly don't know how widely either brand is sold or serviceable -- that's one of the reasons people push folks to SP or Aqualung, is because they are nearly ubiquitous. Keep your gear well-maintained and check it carefully before traveling, and it's unlikely you're going to run into a major servicing issue (carrying a set of appropriate o-rings is never a bad idea ) and you can always rent a regulator if you are just out of luck on fixing something.

I absolutely agree that, if you are bent upon wireless AI, a wrist unit will cost more than a console. But a wrist unit that is not AI won't necessarily. For example, the Suunto Zoop is an inexpensive wrist computer that we have recommended to our students. But it's up to you, and with your trip coming up, you obviously feel some urgency to acquire something, which kind of limits your ability to do a lot of comparison shopping.

OTOH, I just bought a Suunto D9 with transmitter here on SB for $400

 

[stuartv]

You have a point; it's unlikely you'd have to have all of your setup worked on while you are away somewhere. I honestly don't know how widely either brand is sold or serviceable -- that's one of the reasons people push folks to SP or Aqualung, is because they are nearly ubiquitous.

That is one of the draws of the Tusa R-700 first stage. Since it is identical to the SP MK17, I'm assuming any ScubaPro dealer/tech could work on it. So, I guess the question is how ubiquitous Oceanic is, as a brand. I get the impression that they are pretty ubiquitous.

Besides, as you noted, if I ever have a problem, I should just be able to rent something. And, from what I've seen, renting a reg set is pretty darn inexpensive. Almost to the point of renting a set to take with me on a day's dive, as a just-in-case backup.

I absolutely agree that, if you are bent upon wireless AI, a wrist unit will cost more than a console. But a wrist unit that is not AI won't necessarily. For example, the Suunto Zoop is an inexpensive wrist computer that we have recommended to our students. But it's up to you, and with your trip coming up, you obviously feel some urgency to acquire something, which kind of limits your ability to do a lot of comparison shopping.

OTOH, I just bought a Suunto D9 with transmitter here on SB for $400

I have been doing the comparison shopping pretty steadily for a couple of months now. It's just the timing of my (unexpected) Christmas bonus that has suddenly brought urgency to the fore. Without it, I'd be going to RM next week and just hoping that the rental gear did not, in some way, create a negative experience for my g/f.

And at this point, I'm still considering an Oceanic Pro Plus, some Oceanic-family wrist computer, or a Petrel 2. I *could* really stretch the budget and get the Petrel 2. But, I could also spend less than half the money and get an Aeris Epic with wireless AI and proceed on the basis that it will either work fine, and be a great bargain, or it will have problems, I'll have to rent a DC, and I'll have some chance of having Aeris/Oceanic ultimately replace it with an Atom 3.1 - which would also be a great bargain. Time to trudge over to the Computers subforum... Hi ho, hi ho...

 

[Colliam7]

I'm considering buying the following rig (all new, from an authorized dealer): Tusa R-700 1st, 2 x Oceanic Delta 4.1 2nds, Oceanic Pro Plus 2.1 Deluxe (includes QD, data cable, and compass). It would run about $900 plus tax and possibly the cost of a LPI hose. . . . Thoughts?

They really aren't giving you a deal that should turn your head. If it was $700, that would be closer to a good deal, at least in terms of price. I am sure they are hyping you about 'blowing out' this item and that item - don't buy it. There may be some blowing out going on in their pitch, but I would think first of anatomical spaces.

The first stage is fine, it is a good cold water system and it has two HP ports - a feature that would allow the additional of a transmitter to connect to a wireless air-integrated computer in the future, if that is what you ultimately want. The 2nd stages are OK as well - they have both a venturi control and user-adjustable breathing. And, I think that getting two identical second stages is a great idea - so, good for you! I mix brands between my first and second stages at times (Apeks and Zeagle), but I have the luxury of servicing them myself, and working for a shop that services both brands I use, so I get parts kits without an issue. In this case, it probably isn't an issue for you. If you have local service for both, that is good. Service for any specific brand while traveling to resorts is always an unknown variable (although I usually try to call ahead to find out what brands a destination shop can service). If having a high level of comfort regarding service availability while traveling was a priority, I would look primarily at Apeks and Scubapro and accept the cost differential.

they said that every person who works or teaches for the shop dives with an Oceanic console like the Pro Plus 2.1 though many of them use that as their backup and also have a wrist computer.

You are getting a sales pitch, pure and simple. Ignore it.

They are offering the Pro Plus Deluxe (i.e. with QD, data cable, and attached compass) for $450.

And, you can buy it on Amazon for about that price.

If you want a bulky, cumbersome console, go for it. It is your money and our individual likes and dislikes (like, Lynne, I have real disdain for consoles) are really not relevant. My 'thoughts' at this point would be to go for the reg - while not a steal, it is a good price at $430, and you will be happy with it - and rent a computer on your trip. Call the resort where you will be diving and find out what you can rent. Heck, see if your valued LDS will rent one to you for your trip - at a fair price (and don't listen to the, 'Well we are happy to rent, but for what we'd have to charge you, you would better off buying our computer' nonsense) You are a new diver. Get used to using a simple brass and glass SPG to monitor your pressure. Use a rental computer for time and depth data. Log you dives on paper for a while.

I really like to support my local dive shops when I can. Not to mention the support I will get from them having bought my gear from them and them being authorized dealers (who buy a lot of stock from some of these manufacturers).

Good for you. There is nothing wrong (and there is a lot right) with supporting your LDS. But, any good business relationship involves mutual support. You might want to test the relationship water and see if they are equally willing to support you - by giving a better price, or better yet - better advice on the computer.