Additional DM liability while on Vacation??

[flots am]

I am hoping to complete my PADI DM training this weekend, and although it is easy for me to set lofty goals since I am not jaded by experience, I plan to be the type of divemaster that is willing to help. I am pretty sure I would rather live with losing my life savings, than live with someone's death that I may have been able to prevent.

FWIW, being a DM won't make you jaded, although it might make you sore and overly-watchful.

Also, you shouldn't be at any big financial risk. Whatever shop you work for should either provide or pay for liability insurance.

On a recent dive in Mexico, one of my friends did a discover scuba for the first time, and I went along on the dive. I prevented my friend from shooting up to the surface a few times while the instructor was about 20 feet away taking pictures of turtles. Perhaps the instructor would have acted differently without me there . . .

Probably not. As you get farther away from a functioning legal system, the fear of being sued or prosecuted goes down, and things become "looser".

flots.

[nimoh]

FWIW, being a DM won't make you jaded, although it might make you sore and overly-watchful.

Also, you shouldn't be at any big financial risk. Whatever shop you work for should either provide or pay for liability insurance.



Probably not. As you get farther away from a funtioning legal system, the fear of being sued or prosecured goes down, and things become "looser".

flots.

thanks flots,



I think you are right on the nose. Jaded is probably not the right word, I meant that after the experience of wasting a few vacation dives taking unprepared divers to the surface, I will probably start telling them to go to the surface rather than taking them, but I can't ever see myself ignoring those divers or representing myself as AOW to reduce other divers' expectations of me. My priorities in diving are 1. safety (of me and those around me), 2. having fun and hoping that #1 doesn't interfere with #2 very often.

As for the instructor issue, I generally don't act out of fear of being prosecuted, if I am in the pool or open water as a DM (candidate), then I am doing my best to help the students learn to dive. I guess my point is, if you don't enjoy teaching, why do it? Perhaps I am trying to render a grey picture in black and white here though

[Aardvark]

Given that this appears a question about legal liability, rather than moral obligation, it will vary wildly depending on where you are diving. Here, my understanding is that you are only required to act where you have a duty of care toward the person involved - you have a duty of care toward your buddy and students under your instruction, for example.

When you are not acting in a professional capacity you don't have a duty of care toward other divers in the area. If you do choose to get involved in an incident, then you must do what you can without exceeding the boundaries of your training.

Whether you feel morally obliged to act is another question entirely. I would hate to be in a position where I'm defending myself on the basis of "no duty of care" when I could have helped.

[Oldbear]

great discussion.


Furthermore, I care about the livelihood of dive operators, but not to the point where I would keep my mouth shut when I witness unsafe practices. The diving world needs quality operators, not just operators.

On a recent dive in Mexico, one of my friends did a discover scuba for the first time, and I went along on the dive. I prevented my friend from shooting up to the surface a few times while the instructor was about 20 feet away taking pictures of turtles. Perhaps the instructor would have acted differently without me there and it would have been a safe dive, but the fact of the matter is, I am not a pro (yet) and I am not qualified to do his job. I told the instructor after the dive that I didn't like his conduct, but he blew it off. After we got back, I voiced my opinion to the owner of the operation and told him that I would not recommend his operation for people doing discover scuba but stop short of reporting this to PADI and they were apologetic and said they would investigate it. On a different dive, I had a great divemaster, so I am not ready to condemn the operation (which is why they remain nameless in this post).

I don't regret any of my actions, I was able to prevent a possible problem with my friend, and my follow-up may prevent a possible problem with some other discover scuba student.

Nimoh,

I liked what you had to say...well spoken Diver.

While not wanting to get off the original topic of additional DM Liability Insurance, you make a good point ... speaking up when you see a wrong happening.

I would like to believe that most Dive Operators really want to run a safe business. Yet they cannot be everywhere at once. Employees are not all the same in their ethics and professional aptitude; and some just have a lapse of judgment or a bad day. But we need to bring these events to the attention of more responsible individuals and covering bodies, so these actions/events do not become habit and an expectable mode of operations. I too experienced an unacceptable event in Coz with a major Dive Operator and told the owner which I believe made the corrective actions...I have been back twice and look forward to many more times and have not heard of any more similar events. I hope that the DM learned from his mistake and moved forward.

In my honest opinion, regardless of the professional certification or experience level of a diver, when unacceptable events/actions are witnessed, something should be said…as I mentioned earlier in this thread direct intervention has to be something personally decided. But non-direct action does not have to lead to complacency when alerting the proper and responsible parties. If nothing is said, very little to nothing will be learned…

“I never worry about action, but only about inaction.” – Winston Churchill

~ME~

[Easdem]

Can you be held liable while on vacation if you hold a pro level certification? In short no. Liability comes when you receive some "consideration" and have a duty of care to those you are supervising. However, you can still be sued. Even if you have someone sign 17 different releases of liability, there are many ways that you can be successfully sued.

Like others have said, it doesn't matter which card you show, they will find out.

[boulderjohn]

Can you be held liable while on vacation if you hold a pro level certification? In short no. Liability comes when you receive some "consideration" and have a duty of care to those you are supervising. However, you can still be sued. Even if you have someone sign 17 different releases of liability, there are many ways that you can be successfully sued.

I am not sure what you mean by this. The end of your statement seems to contradict the beginning. If you can't be held liable, how can you be successfully sued?

[Davemohio]

Can you be held liable while on vacation if you hold a pro level certification? In short no. Liability comes when you receive some "consideration" and have a duty of care to those you are supervising. However, you can still be sued. Even if you have someone sign 17 different releases of liability, there are many ways that you can be successfully sued.

Like others have said, it doesn't matter which card you show, they will find out.

+1.

Senior Instructors have advised me to show my highest level card. I carry that and my Nitrox card.

A good lawyer can and will find out regardless.

On many of the charters I have been on, I am glad if they even LOOK at my card. They don't seem to be concened about dive certs.

One of the other posters mentioned boat behavior. It is the quiet/calm ones that seem to turn out to be instructors.

[WSOPFAN]

I agree, show highest level card and be sure to try and dive with only very experienced divers then you will have less to worry about.

[Lorenzoid]

I am not sure what you mean by this. The end of your statement seems to contradict the beginning. If you can't be held liable, how can you be successfully sued?

I suspect "successfully" shouldn't be in that sentence. You can be sued, but for the plaintiff to be successful would be a longshot for the reasons he mentions--no duty of care to a stranger not in your charge.

[boulderjohn]

I suspect "successfully" shouldn't be in that sentence. You can be sued, but for the plaintiff to be successful would be a longshot for the reasons he mentions--no duty of care to a stranger not in your charge.

Even being sued unsuccessfully is highly unlikely. In most such cases, lawyers take cases on a contingency basis, and they are not likely to sue someone and put in those kind of hours with only a minimum chance of success. In past threads on this topic (and there have been many), attorneys participating in the discussion have done searches for cases in which a professional was sued simply for being in attendance at an event without a professional relationship with the victim. I don't recall a single case being found.