Welcome to ScubaBoard, an online scuba diving forum community where you can join over 100,000 divers from around the world discussing all things related to Scuba Diving. To gain full access to ScubaBoard you must register for a free account.
As a registered member you will be able to:
Participate in over 500 dive topic forums and browse from over 3,000,000 posts.
Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
Post your own photos or view from 80,000 user submitted images.
Gain access to our free classifieds marketplace to buy, sell and trade gear, travel and services.
Use the calendar to organize your events and enroll in other members' events.
All this and much more is available to you absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact the ScubaBoard Support Team.
Vintage Equipment DivingPre-1980 "Vintage" SCUBA Gear, including Double Hose Regulators, Conshelfs, Voit, Aquamaster, Horsecollar BC's and other classic pieces of gear. Sea Hunt, Jacques Cousteau and the early history of this great sport.
Please note: The last reply in this thread was more than 1 month(s) ago.
I recently purchased my first Double hose. It's a US Divers Square label Royal Aquamaster. I want to start using it as my primary regulator but still have a secondary and SPG. I plan on running my SPG off of a Banjo fitting and a secondary Reg. off the hooka port. I want to use a BP/W and DIR type setup. I will be diving in northern California In fresh and seawater. Probably no colder than 45 degrees.I need some advice to the following questions.
1. What would be a good choice for my 2nd regulator? I was thinking of the Titan lx, or a sp 600 or 650gv. ( I was thinking of using it on a long hose routed either behind the neck and then clipped to the right hand dring on the shoulder. Or just up to the right hand shoulder d ring and the excess tucked into my belt.)
2. If I need to use the secondary reg. and not the Royal how can i keep the hoses from rising up and free flowing. ( i read that Luis was developing a DSV, Any word on that?)
3. If I'm using the Royal and for some reason it takes a crap. Will the secondary reg hooked up to the Hooka still work?
Thanks for the help
J
Last edited by INFIDELxx; September 30th, 2008 at 07:10 PM.
The hookah port is on the right side and angles upward at 45 deg. I don't see the routing scheme you suggest. Would the hose go around your throat? In DIR, the short hose is the secondary. You have it reversed. The Phoenix replacement HP block would allow several options including simplifying the HP gauge setup. The back up second stage would only be as reliable as the reg's first stage. They are pretty reliable, about like a Conshelf. If you hook up an SPG to the Phoenix be mindful that the connection is 3/8. Adapter needed there. It's a lot better than fooling with a "banjo" fitting however. As far as the corrugated hose, one could run an arm through it like a sling if the suit is not too bulky. This would have to be checked against the single hose routing, for interference. I've been diving 50 years and never used a backup regulator. Do you expect to need one frequently?
The hookah port is on the right side and angles upward at 45 deg. I don't see the routing scheme you suggest. Would the hose go around your throat? In DIR, the short hose is the secondary. You have it reversed. The Phoenix replacement HP block would allow several options including simplifying the HP gauge setup. The back up second stage would only be as reliable as the reg's first stage. They are pretty reliable, about like a Conshelf. If you hook up an SPG to the Phoenix be mindful that the connection is 3/8. Adapter needed there. It's a lot better than fooling with a "banjo" fitting however. As far as the corrugated hose, one could run an arm through it like a sling if the suit is not too bulky. This would have to be checked against the single hose routing, for interference. I've been diving 50 years and never used a backup regulator. Do you expect to need one frequently?
GOD no! not around my throat. I was thinking off the hooka down my right side then back up maybe clipped into the right shoulder strap and tuck the excess into my belt.
The phoenix nozzle is my planned route but I cant get one until December. I'm trying to make due until then.
Since I'm a Fireman redundancy is in my blood. So at this point especially until I am comfortable with the Double hose I will use a Backup.
Do you think the bend from the hooka down wouldn't work?
I never thought about hooking the hose under my arm that may work.
Caution, saying Double Hose regulator and DIR in the same sentience will have the true believers getting the stakes and gasoline ready
But, one way you can have Kate and Edith too is to use an H-valve or old style Sherwood manifold as shown here with the Sherwood manifold.
If you use the manifold in the normal configuration, the 2nd regulator interferes with the intake horn of a double hose.
So, reverse the central section so that the post on the tank is now facing backward like this.
Even though I show my PRAM, it works very well with an unmodified double hose reg by running the SPG and inflator off of the single hose reg.Here is what it looks like all set up
You can do the same thing with a H-valve by simply rotating the 2nd post so that it faces backward. On my H-valve it will put the single hose reg in back of and bellow the double hose.
If I was going to use an octo, I would use a longer than normal octo hose and route it over my shoulder, down the front right side and clipped on to my BD between the shoulder and waist. The first stage in the Royal is very dependable- same one as the Conshelf and Titan- and not likely to give you problems but if you really want a backup, slinging a small pony would be the best option. The second stage on the USD double hoses are pretty much bulletproof so you are not likely to have any major problems with it either but if the second stage fails open or the first stage fails shut your in deep dodo either way. The pony would cover you either way. It would also elimate the need to worry about the hoses floating but a small bungie with a clip on it to attach the hoses to your BC's shoulder D-ring would do.
For a second stage, most any will do but the IP on USD double hoses is around 110psi (although I have seen a couple of different values in various manuals) so you may need to tweek a nonblanced second stage to get it to breath like you want. A good balanced second stage will eliminate the need to tweek the second stage.
You can run a Phoenix or a Royal IP between 140 and 150 with no issues. Frankly, I never carry an octo or pony with my double hoses. Unless some charter operation requires one leave it home. This backup stuff is way over blown. I'm with Pesky, I too have been diving 50 years without ever using or needing a backup reg.
__________________
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool
For a second stage, most any will do but the IP on USD double hoses is around 110psi (although I have seen a couple of different values in various manuals) so you may need to tweek a nonblanced second stage to get it to breath like you want. A good balanced second stage will eliminate the need to tweek the second stage.
The 110 psi was in some of the early manuals for the non balanced Aqua Master. IMO it assumed that it was being adjusted with a full tank.
The RAM should be adjusted just like any Conshelf, Titan, etc. to around 135 psi or even higher if desired. I think some of the early manuals did say 110 psi for the RAM also, but I am willing to bet that it was a mistake. It is at least outdated.
To the OP:
The RAM first and second stages are both extremely reliable, but if you are not used it, having an alternate air source is not a bad idea (if it helps get comfortable with the DH or if you dive with divers that are not familiar with a DH). The first stage is so reliable that using it to feed an octopus is very reasonable.
If you are coming from the hookah port, you may need a 90 degree swivel or even a “T” to feed your BC also.
The banjo fitting is not the most convenient thing to use, but it works.
I always just put my mouthpiece under my chin to avoid free flow, but I also have a plug that I insert into the mouthpiece. The plug block the mouthpiece and is attached with a short leach to my shoulder therefore it also parks the mouthpiece.
I am setting up a set of doubles similar to Gilldiver as a semi-vintage technical diving set up. The alternate second stage will consist of a modified Conshelf and the second stage will be a Scubapro metal balanced adjustable (109/156). I will post some pictures when I get it set up.
That's funny, about the Conshelf/R109. In the 1970's-80's that was my preferred setup. I still have two sets kept around for use on oxygen tanks. Since I got the bends ten years ago I always carry oxygen onboard. I don't use the R109 regularly, too heavy. Makes my jaw tired.
I decided not to mention the old Sherwood manifold to avoid confusing the guy. I don't see any need for it. There are trade offs familiar to divers who weigh failure points. There is more gear to maintain. If the manifold blows both regs and the BC shut down or begin to limp depending on the problem. If a regulator goes bad, I like the fact that the valve which serves the offending regulator can be shut off if it can be reached. It's not exactly DIR, not cave, not anything except vintage. Nothing wrong with vintage but the extra complexity doesn't serve a purpose in light of his decision to get a Phoenix in the next few months. Whatever the setup, it can never be technical or DIR due to the inability to use a center bar with shutoff valve and DIN connections to get a cleaner arrangement. H valves are Rube Goldberg contraptions but good for instructors during in water class. Whatever it is or isn't the right double hose setup can be cool, indeed, even that Sherwood rig, heh, heh. The double hose system is reliable enough. For many years, Cousteau bragged that there had never been a death due to mechanical failure of the Aqualung. Pony bottles suck.
Last edited by pescador775; October 1st, 2008 at 12:51 AM.
You have gotten some good advice. On my non-Phoenix rigs I use a 40 inch hose on my octopus. You can use either a three way splitter or a LP swivel 90 degree fitting. These are robust and have never proven to be anything but reliable for me. The 40 inch hose goes UNDER the rh shoulder. A 90 degree Dive Rite regulator swivel works great at the second stage.
Yes, should something happen to the RAM and the can floods or the diaphram is punctured or some sort of other odd--nearly impossible---weird happening to the RAM second stage the hookah supplied octopus will continue to work normally. A first stage failure, maybe not. I bungee the octopus to my neck with a fisherman knot breakaway necklace.
Using a five or seven foot hose DIR style will not work. The hose would be UNDER the RAM hoses and therefore could not be deployed without interfering with the double hose--it does not work.
The banjo will do fine for your spg and with a 90 degree swivel on your octo and on the hookah (both available from Dive Rite) you will find that your hose routing is excellent with the under arm arrangement. Here is a 90 degree swivel on the hookah on one of my PRAMs. I prefer this routing to the Phoenix LP ports often.
I would not suggest the Titan LX, I would get either the standard Titan second or a Conshelf or similar.
As to the RAM hoses floating up, I pinch it under my chin, it is not diffucult and once the octo is in my mouth the RAM hoses are trapped (why would I give myself my own octo if I am out of air?). As to a DSV, several of us have fooled around with various experiments. The PMDSV that Luis provided me is quite useful and it is simply a cone shaped plug that sticks into the mouthpoiece and then has a tether to my rh D ring. You can see it on the yellow tether.
I actually do dive a wing/BP with double hose, it is the only way to dive if you must use a BC, it is far superior to other arrangments in my opinion short of no BC which is awfully hard to beat but not always practical.
I was running as high as 160 psi IP on my RAM but have backed off to 135 now for for better consistency day to day.
Nothing sits a tank better for dh diving that my new Oxy ultra light plate and Oxy 18 wing. It is darn near perfect.
Second best has been this one of a kind Freedom Plate with Oxy Mach V 30 lb wing. I love it.
This worked but the standard bent plate is not ideal. It sits the tank to far from my back and it fights a proper up/down setting of the tank.
As to the up/down positoning of the tank with a double hose, if you dive a wing/BP and you have good horizontal trim you may find as I did that tank position is much less critical, you do not have to wear the tank in the typical double hose exaggerated low postion to get good performance. In fact, it can be counter productive if you trim head down slightly and frog kick. Again, the position shown in the diapgram below is correct for vintage diving with a double hose but if you use a wing/BP and trim horozontal or head down you will find this is not needed.
Yes, reverse mounting the regulator on the LH post is a nice trick with the excellent Sherwood double post manifold.
Not exactly how I do it now but this is essentially how it is done without the Phoenix for a full house rig.
If you take a Sherwood manifold, specifically two of them, and convert them into one THREE post (rh normal, center, lh reverse and all with their own valve) then you have something of a weird animal.
N
Last edited by Nemrod; October 1st, 2008 at 11:56 AM.
