Off-topic Discussion moved from Diver Missing in the Bahamas thread

[TampaScuba]

Anything new on this?

A dive buddy was out this weekend around st. pete area and had a tiger shark 5 feet from him on the surface when he was about to get in the boat. He got lucky.

 

[wspalding]

Anything new on this?

A dive buddy was out this weekend around st. pete area and had a tiger shark 5 feet from him on the surface when he was about to get in the boat. He got lucky.

I understand being a little apprehensive about having a curious tiger shark visiting during a safety stop, but that doesn't mean a bite was imminent. I'm not sure if I would characterize that as being lucky he wasn't injured.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Doug Kahle]

The diver who was bit and died in February 2008 was bit on his calve by a Bull Shark. He was laying on his stomach, with his legs spread, and his face glued to his camera. He was also laying right next to the bait crates.

One should avoid doing all of the aforementioned.

The sharks are always watching your eyes; they know that if they can't see your eyes that means you can't see them. If you put your camera up to your face, you better make sure there are no sharks behind you. Ideally, the photographer needs to learn how to shoot blind, i.e., by not looking through the camera.

The bite was not violent; I don't believe the bottom teeth went in; only the top teeth; but, obviously, if a shark bites you even "gently" in the wrong spot, you will bleed to death quickly.

Everyone knows the risk.

And, eventually, someone will get bit in Florida during a shark feed and die. It's inevitable, just like at least one diver will die in 7 to 10 days during mini-season; a diver will get run over by a boat again; a spearo will get bit or shot again; a para-sailer will die again; surfers will continue to get bit; a motorcycle rider will die within the next 10 days somewhere between Jupiter and Miami; planes will crash; and so on......

 

[The Chairman]

He's not the only one, Dan. I saw that John Russell has been using this unfortunate incident to further his jihad against Emerald Charters.

When I was attacked I surrendered the fish I shot immediately but the shark attacked me three times and completely ignored the fish.

Were you bitten? Are you still spear fishing?

Here's the thing. Most people want to stop others from having fun and yet ignore their impact. It's my humble opinion that the hundreds of spear fishermen do more to affect shark behavior than the few shark feeders. The spearos that want to stop shark feeding don't seem willing to stop their own activities. The hypocrisy is palpable.

 

[danvolker]

He's not the only one, Dan. I saw that John Russell has been using this unfortunate incident to further his jihad against Emerald Charters.

Pete,
This whole Shark Diving evolution has caught many of us by surprise......and it has challenged many of our long time assumptions....challenged the Folk Wisdom or long accepted stereotypes....
Even very long time divers like myself, that have waded in to this issue deeply, have been forced to experience first hand that the ideas we held for decades, were just plain wrong.

As you no doubt remember, I was pretty obnoxious about Randy and his ideas on Shark feeding dives....but on getting much more deeply involved in this issue, you and everyone else saw me change my position, apologize to Randy, and then maintain an entirely different stance from then on.

I don't know John Russell, but I think it would help to get all the facts in plain view.....and if John would like to see how Jim runs a shark dive, I imagine that would be easy enough for me to arrange. And while Jim uses a different procedure than does Randy, Jim was one of the first experts to tell me I was dead wrong in suggesting that Randy was endangering people.

I can't say I recall reading any of John Russell's negative posts....???

---------- Post added July 23rd, 2014 at 10:33 AM ----------

OK...I just pulled John Russell up on Facebook.....he and his Florida Association of Diving Instructors ( who are these guys?) appear to be on a mission against Shark diving.
And just as apparent, John is still using fictitious accounts of the incident to stir up others that don't like shark diving.

After reading about 20 of his posts, the only thing I am surprised at, is that he did not just say that Randy and Jimmy have had hundreds of divers killed during their shark dives.....it would be a really powerful claim, and since we can see he could care less about being truthful, it would make sense for him to say this !

" These guys have killed dozens of divers.....no, hundreds of divers.....no, thousands of divers...yeah, thousands of divers...that's the ticket, they've killed thousands of divers on their shark feeds!" Pathological Liar from Saturday Night Live. See this, and read future posts by John Russell or Neil Watson of the Bahamian Diving Association -- with this in mind

[video=youtube_share;pkYNBwCEeH4]http://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4[/video] http://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4

 

[muzikbiz22]

Pete,
This whole Shark Diving evolution has caught many of us by surprise......and it has challenged many of our long time assumptions....challenged the Folk Wisdom or long accepted stereotypes....
Even very long time divers like myself, that have waded in to this issue deeply, have been forced to experience first hand that the ideas we held for decades, were just plain wrong.

As you no doubt remember, I was pretty obnoxious about Randy and his ideas on Shark feeding dives....but on getting much more deeply involved in this issue, you and everyone else saw me change my position, apologize to Randy, and then maintain an entirely different stance from then on.

I don't know John Russell, but I think it would help to get all the facts in plain view.....and if John would like to see how Jim runs a shark dive, I imagine that would be easy enough for me to arrange. And while Jim uses a different procedure than does Randy, Jim was one of the first experts to tell me I was dead wrong in suggesting that Randy was endangering people.

I can't say I recall reading any of John Russell's negative posts....???

---------- Post added July 23rd, 2014 at 10:33 AM ----------

OK...I just pulled John Russell up on Facebook.....he and his Florida Association of Diving Instructors ( who are these guys?) appear to be on a mission against Shark diving.
And just as apparent, John is still using fictitious accounts of the incident to stir up others that don't like shark diving.

After reading about 20 of his posts, the only thing I am surprised at, is that he did not just say that Randy and Jimmy have had hundreds of divers killed during their shark dives.....it would be a really powerful claim, and since we can see he could care less about being truthful, it would make sense for him to say this !

" These guys have killed dozens of divers.....no, hundreds of divers.....no, thousands of divers...yeah, thousands of divers...that's the ticket, they've killed thousands of divers on their shark feeds!" Pathological Liar from Saturday Night Live. See this, and read future posts by John Russell or Neil Watson of the Bahamian Diving Association -- with this in mind

[video=youtube_share;pkYNBwCEeH4]http://youtu.be/pkYNBwCEeH4[/video] Jon Lovitz Appears as the Pathological Liar on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show - YouTube

Just took a look at Florida Association of Diving Instructors on FB, myself One would think that it would be a resource for Dive Instructors. It appears to be anything but.

 

[The Chairman]

Dan,

For more on John Russell's jihad against shark feeders and Emerald Charters, please go and participate here: https://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?...oups_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gmp_1791499 Given that I think he has done so much harm to our community and sport, I have personally banned him from ScubaBoard. He is only the second to get that attention from me in the history of ScubaBoard. He has tried to get me kicked out of NASE, SDI and NAUI. Of course, I already left NAUI and the good people at NASE called to give me a heads up about his actions. He has solicited others to try and get me kicked out too and a few of them have contacted me with the actual emails. 2 phunni. Everyone who has contacted me about him laughs about his feeble attempts.

FWIW, it appears that FADI was created when Russell was kicked out of PADI. I don't know if it was temporary or permanent, but he's still pretty pissed about it. He's a legend only in his own mind as far as I am concerned.

Also, I reaffirm my prediction that at least one diver will die next week during mini-season. Mini-season has got to be one of the most dangerous events not only in Florida but the world. At least 25 to 30 deaths in the last 10 years. Why is this ok and in the words of the FWC apparently not a "public safety issue"? Anyone trying to get it banned? If not, why not?

A tragic note on this... two years ago the headlines right after mini season here in the Keys read: "No One Died!" How about that for a condemnation of mini season? Yet, the boats need the business so it will continue.

 

[Grouperdawg]

At GrouperDawg:

As Net Doc noted, this is where the hypocrisy enters the picture.

There is no doubt in my mind that the best way to attract sharks is by spear-fishing. In fact, we usually have 1 or 2 spear guns with us in addition to the bait crates. The struggling fish really gets the sharks jacked-up. Perhaps its the fresh food and that's also why some of the sharks spit out our previously frozen chum; or, a struggling and thrashing fish is far more consistent with the shark's evolution, i.e., they instinctively know that dinner is near when a fish is struggling and thrashing and they get really excited. So, we almost always spear fish in addition to the bait crates.

And, the last serious bite in Palm Beach County was on a spearo with a recently shot or dead fish in his possession.

So, have you attempted to make spear-fishing illegal? If not, why not? There is no doubt that the spearos have changed shark behavior -- why is this ok? Clearly, spearing is more dangerous than shark feeding; why are you not trying to stop it?

Let the hypocrisy begin.

I assume you agree that Mr. Petty knew the risk of shark feeding; and, that he clearly accepted that risk by booking a trip on the Shear Water. Am I correct? If yes, why is that a problem? As I've stated above, there is no doubt in my mind that someone will get bit and die on our shark feeding dives in Florida; it's inevitable; but, we all know the risk and we accept it.

Sharks are not killing machines. If they were, there would be a lot more deaths and bites. It is a very rare occurrence -- especially a bite to a diver.

You state that it is likely that Mr. Petty was killed by a shark. Completely disagree. In all the years at Tiger Beach and with all the numerous dive operators putting divers in the water with big sharks and chum, only one death has occurred -- Mr. Groh in February 2008. That's it. Only one! Thus, being in the water with sharks and chum does not appear to be that dangerous at all; if it were, there would be a lot more serious bites and deaths. But, again, only one!

Bringing the Indianapolis into this discussion is ridiculous; as is any situation not involving a diver. Sharks are looking for things splashing on the surface of the water; things that splash on the surface are dying, wounded, or land animals that got washed out to sea, i.e., all easy meals.

Note: In one of the recent articles I read on this matter, one of the family members or friends stated that Mr. Petty researched everything; thus, Mr. Petty clearly knew what he was getting himself into and the risk. Do you agree?

One more note: In my posts above, I predicted that a motorcyclist would die within the next 7 to 10 days somewhere between Jupiter and Miami. I heard on the news this morning that there was a motorcycle death in I think Lake Worth last night; why is this ok and no movement to ban motorcycles? Because people accept the risk of riding a motorcycle and they are free to make their own decisions? And, I will predict that within the next 7 to 10 days, another motorcyclist will die somewhere between Jupiter and Miami.

Also, I reaffirm my prediction that at least one diver will die next week during mini-season. Mini-season has got to be one of the most dangerous events not only in Florida but the world. At least 25 to 30 deaths in the last 10 years. Why is this ok and in the words of the FWC apparently not a "public safety issue"? Anyone trying to get it banned? If not, why not?

Holy crap you are defensive, I am not on a crusade to make spearfishing or shark feeding illegal. I was simply pointing out some of the messages on this topic here insinuate that sharks never attack humans, if they do it's just one bite, and that shark feedings are completely safe. I hope someone contemplating a shark dive at least gets another point of view before making up their minds.

I am not a spearo which I assume is someone who spear fishes a lot, I would pole spear once a summer with snorkel in the Bahamas while on vacation which was a lot of fun and have learned from my own ignorance and mistakes I made.

Yes I hope he knew the risk, I hope for his sake and his family nobody told him that shark feedings are "not dangerous at all" and he made an informed decision.

i would recommend you visit sharkattacksurvivors.com , I'm not saying you have to buy into their philosophy but at least get another perspective, shark attacks may be more common than you would think. The 2008 death would not be counted as a shark death in the numbers bc the attack was "provoked" (shark feeding) which is why some believe the ISAF data understates the number of shark attacks. Shark attacks happen every week.

Okay you completely disagree that he was attacked by a shark, I agree that there are a number of scenarios that could have played out, maybe you are right. IMO it is more likely a shark from what I know of what has been released, Would you ar least admit it is possible he was simply attacked by a shark?

Geeze, I did not bring up the Indianapolis, somebody else did and I was responding to their analysis of the shark attacks on corpses, etc. with a first hand account which I thought was pretty interesting.

the motorcycle thing, really : )

 

[The Chairman]

However- the issue is whether or not this behavior actually does change their behavior towards divers in the water, boat motors, cameras, etc and whether someone not engaged in this elected non "babysitting nanny op" will eventually be adversely affected in the long term. I suppose time will tell. It usually takes concrete proof before any changes are made but- as the saying goes- by then it is "too little too late."

Florida is the only state with an anti-feeding law and currently it surpasses the WORLD in numbers of shark attacks: 24 last year. Over half of these attacks happen to surfers and none, zero and nada happened to any scuba diver. In fact, it would appear that there are many, many close calls happening to spearos... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sharks+spearfishing It's my opinion that most who oppose shark feedings do so out of simple hysteria, pettiness or professional jealousy. Those are the things you simply don't want to base public policy or science on.

 

[Doug Kahle]

Some people think this behavior of baiting sharks is messing with mother nature while others strongly disagree. If the risks were only to those individuals who are willing to do the baiting activity, we all might look the other way. However- the issue is whether or not this behavior actually does change their behavior towards divers in the water, boat motors, cameras, etc and whether someone not engaged in this elected non "babysitting nanny op" will eventually be adversely affected in the long term. I suppose time will tell. It usually takes concrete proof before any changes are made but- as the saying goes- by then it is "too little too late."

When I encounter these people who claim that sharks are approaching divers, the discussion ends pretty quickly. First, I tell them that I will give them $1,000 if they can get a shark to come close enough to me for a great pic without a dead or wounded fish (excluding nurse sharks, barracudas, and sand tigers in North Carolina). Second, I ask them to identify the dive site because I want to dive there to see if for myself.

They quickly stfu.

People don't understand that it is not easy getting a shark to come close even with a crate of dead, bloody fish. To this day, I have only one "acceptable" pic of a Bull Shark because I can't get them close enough to me. Great Hammers and Sandbar Sharks are very difficult to get close to; and, if one does decide to come close, it usually does one or two passes then moves on. We are having better luck feeding them while snorkeling with them; apparently, because they don't like the bubbles; but, still not easy and most are still not coming in close enough.

Most Tigers we encounter are too shy to come close enough. We see them on the perimeter, or, they give us one quick fly-by and we never see them again.

Also, the study by Neil Hammerschlag and the U of Miami demonstrated that feeding Tigers had no impact on their migration. Thus, why did the Tigers not stay at Tiger Beach where they can obtain easy food? Why are they not staying in the area with the divers that are feeding them?

Also, this past Lemon Shark migration in Palm Beach County demonstrated that we had 20 to 30 Lemon Sharks for a couple months. Then, suddenly, they all disappeared. They left us and continued on their migration. Again, why did they not stay with the divers who were feeding them?

In conclusion, you expect me to believe that these very same sharks that I cannot get close to with a crate of bloody dead fish are approaching divers who have no dead fish? Bull****! Bull****! Bull****! Again, I got a $1,000 for you if you can get one close to me without a dead fish or wounded fish.