Cave/Wreck and OC trimix/rebreather trimix

[divestoclimb]

Originally Posted by Tienuts

Tom Mount will tell you most of this is common sense. Some have it and some don't.

There are some divers who are smart, careful, intuitive, and could do most deep trimix diving or long cave penetration with a minimal of formal instruction.

There are others who could spend a fortune on classes and equipment and never have the skill set, situational awareness, or common sense to be in a swimming pool, much less a cave or wreck.

My thoughts exactly. I didn't need a wreck penetration or drysuit class, I figured it out on my own, read some books, used my other training/experience (cave), dove with people more experienced than I was, and approached it conservatively. This is how people learned before all the courses came about. I wouldn't recommend that approach for everybody, though, and not for cave or CCR's under any circumstances--history shows that learning those activities from scratch killed a lot of people. The problem is we have more and more people entering tech diving who...well... don't fit the description "smart, careful, intuitive" (and I'd add that they need good judgment).

This article (The Wetware Crisis: the Expert Pool : Bruce F. Webster) gives a good theory behind this. It's applied to IT and computer science, but I think it applies to us too: there are about the same number of good tech divers entering the sport per year as there used to be, the problem is the total per year has gone way way up.

[battles2a5]

Originally Posted by JimLap

This stuff scares the hell out of me... As a result I do not want to do cave or rebreathers at this point( caves never). I do want to do 250 foot OC trimix wreck dives though.

I did not like my wife hearing from all of them though that wreck is far more dangerous than cave.

I felt the same way until I started doing 250ft dives. Now a rebreather seems much safer to me at those depths and beyond, and the logistics around doing back to back big dives like that start to get ridiculous on OC. As for the wreck vs. cave being more dangerous, I think that argument will continue for the ages. I just like to think that they both have some very unique and compelling ways to kill you Best to be trained in either capacity.

[Tortuga68]

With reference to the OP, I can see a case for having an 'overhead fundamentals course', which covered the common ground, then branching into either cave or wreck (or both) as specialities

Agree/disagree?

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Originally Posted by Rhone Man

Just to balance the post: John Chatterton gave a webinar last night, and one of things he commented on was that training agencies like to "slice the loaf pretty thin" when splitting up their training courses, and he though there were some levels you could skip over pretty easily. On the TDI open circuit classes, two he picked on were basic trimix (why bother, go straight from extended range to advanced) and advanced nitrox (doesn't add much that they don't cover anyhow in deco procedures).

Now, that is not the same thing as equating wrecks to caves, or OC trimix to rebreather trimix. But I think the point still has some validity: cutting a pizza into 8 slices instead of 6 does not make it a bigger pizza.

That's a very descriptive way to put it and I think most agree. The real debate would be how many slices the loaf should be cut in to and where to make the cuts.

I've probably taken a dozen different classes on my way to cave and trimix: OW, AOW, Rescue, Nitrox, DM, Cavern, Tech Diver, Fundamentals, Tech 1, Trimix, Intro, Apprentice and Cave. If I could reorganize those classes, this is what I would reduce it to: OW and AOW (which would include rescue and nitrox), DM would remain a separate class, Cavern, Tech Diver, Fundamentals and Tech 1 would all be combined into one Basic Tech Diver class. Trimix would be one class and cave would be one class. The benefit would be that there's no diving beyond your certification. You're either cave or you're not; you're either trimix or you're not. There's no basic and advanced at these levels. Dives involving trimix and caves are advanced dives. Why would anyone want to put divers in the water to do those dives without "Advanced" training?

[divestoclimb]

Originally Posted by DeepSeaExplorer

Trimix would be one class and cave would be one class. The benefit would be that there's no diving beyond your certification. You're either cave or you're not; you're either trimix or you're not. There's no basic and advanced at these levels. Dives involving trimix and caves are advanced dives. Why would anyone want to put divers in the water to do those dives without "Advanced" training?

Have you ever seen a zero-to-hero cave class? It's not pretty--eight days straight of cave diving and the results are sub-par.

I think the way cave training works now is pretty close to the way it should be. Not considering cavern, you take intro then you practice for a bit before you're ready for full cave. Some of the skills that require practice could be gained from a basic tech class but others you don't get, like pull and glide or sufficient reel practice.

[Rhone Man]

There has to be a balance. One advantage to chopping up training into chunks is that people can gain experience at various levels before they progress (see all the old arguments in the "Trimix in 100 dives" thread).

But if you chop the chunks up too small, people will leapfrog, and they may try to leap too far.

[Meng_Tze]

Originally Posted by wedivebc

I...
As far as RB trimix and OC trimix is concerned the differences are plenty.

I have a question at that. If you are OC trimix trained and CCR trained.... what is there in CCR trimix you can't do/understand thus necessitate going through CCR trimix? The same goes with OW CCR trained and OC Cave trained, what is there you can't understand/figure out going into cave on CCR?

[Tortuga68]

Originally Posted by Rhone Man

But if you chop the chunks up too small, people will leapfrog, and they may try to leap too far

I don't disagree, but - Hello PADI

[wedivebc]

Originally Posted by Meng_Tze

I have a question at that. If you are OC trimix trained and CCR trained.... what is there in CCR trimix you can't do/understand thus necessitate going through CCR trimix? The same goes with OW CCR trained and OC Cave trained, what is there you can't understand/figure out going into cave on CCR?

Since you are diving a RB in your avitar I assume you are aware of the Pyle axiom "you don't know what you don't know"
There are plenty of theoretical similarities but things like proper mixes for dil and bailout. Team bailout strategies. Running your unit unit in SCR mode to extend bailout gas. Changing deco profile when bailing out. Reducing ICD risk when coming off the loop. None of these are taught in MOD 1 or OC trimix and these are some that come to mind. Yeah you could probably figure them out but training is all about eliminating guesswork and ensuring you have covered every aspect of the type of diving discipline you are engaged in.

[Rhone Man]

Originally Posted by wedivebc

Since you are diving a RB in your avitar I assume you are aware of the Pyle axiom "you don't know what you don't know"

Uh-oh. We are one step away from somebody quoting Donald Rumsfeld...