Same topic...New Thread.....Deep Air, Strokes, ect....
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Same topic...New Thread.....Deep Air, Strokes, ect....
This post is intended for those outside the cavediving community who don't seem to understand some of our beliefs.
The rules (in recovery we call them cardinal sins) we live by are built off dead pioneers in our community. The rule of thirds, continous guildline to the surface, 130' max depth - these are all rules that ALL agencies in the cavediving community adhere to. The REASON - through accident analysis of every death - NOT doing one of the above was usually the cause of death of a diver. And it took a lot of dead divers to come to these conclusions. So now, for the most part, cavedivers abide by these three rules. And, for the most part, cavedivers will not dive with others who do not abide by these rules. We don't care how many times you violated the 3rds rule and came out OK. We don't care how many times you entered the cave without a guildline. You will NEVER do it with us. As time has progressed, there have been other "unwritten rules" that have come about BASED on this same accident analysis - for example, 3 lights and no solo in a cave. From every death we learn more and more about what not to do or how to do things safer. This information is based on FACTS derived from the accident analysis of DEAD people. It continues to this day to be the ones that ignore this because they've "gotten away with it" in the past OR believe it's a risk they are willing to take that continue to DIE. THIS IS WHY many of us are so passionate about our belief structure. We were trained differently than other aspects of technical diving - our rules were based on the fatal mistakes of our pioneers.
My reasons for posting this was two fold. First, I hope folks understand where some of us come from and why we can't understand why some one would continue to dive in a FACTUALLY unsafe manner , ie deep air, violating thirds, ect....
Second, please understand why when someone brags about their deep air dives our violating KNOWN safe practices that we get rude. And PLEASE understand WHY - when we call you an idiot. Clearly, an individual with thousand of dives KNOWS BETTER. We are not talking about personal choice or personal preference here - We are talking about THE MENTAL CAPACITY OF ONE TO UNDERSTAND why DIVERS DIE. They die from doing DUMB things. And I am not the one who defines DUMB - DEAD DIVERS DEFINE THE WORD DUMB! And most of these dead divers got away with it for a LONG time - BUT they are still just as DEAD.
As far as i am concerned i like to see peoples honest opinions on certain subjects. I can appreciate the passion and dedication of these people. Without controversial posts we dont learn as much, nor does the subject get open discussion. There needs to be a dialog so those of us who are here to learn can do just that. i for one will listen to the argument and draw my own conclusion.
I am rediscovering tech diving after taking a few years off. I wasnt aware of DIR until a few weeks ago, and i was introduced to it through this board. I wasnt DIR by any means, but i used some DIR principles unknowingly. I did what made sense and worked for me, just so happens that it was the DIR way. I dont think theres anyone out there that dismisses DIR completely, to do so is foolish.
I consider myself a good diver, but with all the reading i have done lately i realize i have alot to learn still. I can see that i wasnt as refined a diver i thought i was, this site and about 3 or 4 particular posters have opened my eyes a bit wider.
Common sense is the bottom line. Diving is continual learning experience.
What you say makes a lot of sense. When you do something that you know is unsafe, and you make it out once, that does not mean you will always make it out. It is stupid to take a risk that could easily kill you simply because you wish to extend the dive, or whatever other reason you may have. That will get you killed, and possibly get others you are diving with killed. I understand completly why you would not want to participate in any form of technical diving with someone who would knowingly violate safety. Your life is more important then the dive.
With that being said, I think that DIR is an excellent system to dive by. However, I feel that their has to be other safe ways of doing it and this is not the only safe way. Now mind you I am not talking about drastic changes to their system, simply smaller things that would only make you 90% DIR let's say. I do not feel you need to be 100% DIR to be safe, but you have to have common sense in what you decide to change or modify. Now keep in mind that I am not a cave diver, and only hope to be one in the future so I can dive all the dives my buddys do. I go by what I see from them, others, and what I read and discuss with people. I am sure my opinions could change as I progress more as a diver.
I do not think that anyone could point out something that is unsafe in this sytem. I am sure that some methods could be just as safe though. It seems most peoples problem is with attitudes, generalizations, and the fact that they do not feel they are DIW (doing it wrong). I admit, I am one of the people who has a problem with these things that I just mentioned, however, that does not dismiss DIR as unsafe in anyway. It does not mean I would not choose DIR as a system to use. It simply means some divers have attitudes.
All in all, be safe people. If you feel that someone is not safe, don't dive with them.
On a side note, I would love to be able to sit down and talk to you some day. The fact that I either know, or have met some of the folks you know might help in that. That is assuming you are the same Jim Holcomb I am thinking of.
It had nothing to do with DIR. It was relating to rules ALL cavedivers dive by. And it was not my opinion, It was FACT based on accident analysis of DEATHS. Remember, ALL of us abide by these rules - DIR and non-DIR. These rules have been in existence long before DIR . No opinions - just facts.
I guess you were speaking about me misunderstanding your post. I apologize, however with the topic being "Same topic...New Thread.....Deep Air, Strokes, ect...." I assumed that is what you were discussing. I apologize for this assumption.
With that being said, I agree 100% with your post.
What's not to like about safe dividng? As you have pointed out, the system(s) employed in the cave diving community has evolved over time (and unfortunately, loss of life).
When someone enrolls in an OW course, they are given the basics to dive and very little else. It would be nice to see that the cert agencies would look beyond the initial OW course and include some of the rationale employed by more advanced divers. (I would imagine that they want to KISS and not overwhelm the students.) I am not suggesting that they teach AOW initially, but to expose the students to more of a "DIR" philosophy. Most of the people that boast of deep air. etc. (IMHO) do so because of lack of education.
I truly believe that when someone is educated, they will tend to make the right decisions.
Well I am a stroke and that really bothers me as being classified as anything other than a new diver trying to learn a sport. I try and read everything I can and mentally go over stuff as I read it trying to place myself in the situations I read about. Hopefully if the need ever arises I will be able to keep my head enough to get myself or buddy up from the depths alive. This is my bottom line!
I will probably never pursue serious technical diving, I was in the service from 70-72 I spent all the time I ever want to, just trying to stay alive. I have read a post on this board where a serious technical diver wrote "recreational diving is not dangerous". With this I disagree. There are many "newbies" such as myself that read these boards and it concerns me that an experienced diver would post a statement like that. I am not sure what good that does for anyone. Like I said I am a newbie, and a stroke, god can it get any worse??
I read most of the posts : strokes, DIR, and find a lot of the information I read here very practical. I was even able to help another more experienced diver that I know who couldn't find a fin strap that fit. I was able to send a link explaining spring straps that was posted on the board. He really liked the idea and is now building them. I will be using them also. Not because they are DIR but because I would hate to try to make the beach with only one fin. Its tough enough getting there with all those lobsters!
So to all of you who participate in those heated discussions thanks because amongst the flames (not really sure what that means yet) us newbie strokes do learn. A word of caution though we can learn the wrong ideas as well as the right.
boy if flammed means what I think it might. I could be just a pile of cinders after this!!
just my .005$ worth, half a penny cause i'm a newbie stroke