The Ongoing "Which Camera for a Newbie?" Question

[Snarffy]

Hello ScubaBoard,

I finally decided that paying $10 for a cheesy disposable u/w camera every time I went on vacation is a waste of money, especially for the quality of pictures I get back. I decided to check out ebay and see what was out there... turns out there's a lot. I'm a wanna-be (land) photographer... I've got an SLR camera and understand the basics of aperture, shutter speed, DOF, etc. Let's say my mind's eye takes great pictures but getting my camera to do the same is still in the learning stages. As such, I started hoping for an u/w camera that would give me a little more versatility than a disposable.

Just about every google search I've done on different cameras has led me to you guys! I've learned a lot just from reading your archives (thank you!) but have a few more questions. I will try to give enough details so I am not just asking the "pick a camera for me" thing:

1). I am not a scuba diver, only a vacation-type snorkler. But I've always lived near the beach and have dreams of someday getting certified. I also know that some vacation spots will let you do shallow-water scuba (like snorkeling without coming up for air) without being certified. For this reason, I was thinking of buying a camera I can grow into a little bit, like the Sea&Sea MX-10 or MM-II EX. However, I've also read that these cameras take a lot of practice before you start getting good pictures, and I am afraid that even with my little-bit of knowledge of land photog, I won't know what I'm doing at all since I cannot practice often, and I'll end up with back-scatter filled blue pictures.
-Q: Are these cameras too much for my level of experience?
-Q: The MX-10 comes with an attachable strobe, but it still sits relatively close to the camera and on the same plane as the lens. (I'm learning!) Is this pointless?

2) So then I'm thinking of downgrading a bit to something like the Reefmaster RC. Most likely, I won't be able to afford the external strobe, which I know is recommended. Also looking at the CL, since it seems pretty similar to the RC.
-Q: I've read that these on-camera flashes are pretty useless in depths more than a few feet. Is this true?
-Q: Are these cameras any better than cheapy resuables or disposables? There's not many frills to them, but maybe that is better for me.
-Q: How well does the coral flash on the RC work compared to the regular flash on the CL? Are there other major differences between the RC and the CL?
-Q: My trusty (land) point-and-shoot died recently, so I kinda like the fact that these cameras can be taken out of the housing for land use when I don't want to use my bulkier SLR. But how does that coral flash on the RC make land pictures look?

3) Unfortunately, cost is an issue. Definitely can't afford a housing for my SLR. Nikonos cameras are similarly out. Can't really afford extra accessories for the cameras I'm looking at. Pretty much, a used Reefmaster is about what I'm looking to spend, although I would consider the Sea&Sea cameras if that was more appropriate. If you know of a camera that would be more appropriate for me than either of these, let me know.

Of course, everything I've written above is based on what I've learned scouring the 'net in the past week or so. Please correct me if I'm working off bad assumptions!!

Apologies for the long post.. I'm hoping to avoid the rule of being too vague for anyone to help me. Thanks in advance...

Lori

 

[CUunderH2O]

Hi Lori,

If you know how to use a camera (aperture and such settings) then I would say go for a used Olympus digital that you can still get a housing for, on eBay. Not that you need to know all that: it has full automatic settings which work great, too! I had owned my Olympus C-4000 for several years and I bought the housing for it on eBay before my trip to Cozumel in February. My photos turned out the best of all the others on my trip, and I had no strobe! One guy had a Reefmaster with strobe, another a Reefmaster with no strobe. Their underwater photos usually turned out too dark or grainy/'noisy' (their lens isn't nearly as good as on the Olympus cameras). Plus, my cavern shots turned out better because the Olympus built-in flash has better range than the Reefmaster. The only thing I had to do with some of my ocean shots was adjust the blue using Photoshop, since I don't have a red filter on my lens. From what I could see, figuring out the strobe use for the Reefmaster was not a simple thing and required a lot of fiddling which you may have time for, or not.

Another option is a Canon with a housing, one of the A-series. A friend shoots with this system, and he gets good results.

Bottom line: get a good topside camera that comes with an underwater housing. (Canon & Olympus are reasonably priced and available on eBay) Once you get used to your camera's results, go out and buy some strobes. They are not essential to most beginning U/W photog's needs.

Check out my Cozumel & cenote photos to see for yourself: http://scubagirl.smugmug.com

 

[alcina]

Ditto the Canon A series - it should fit your needs nicely.

 

[f3nikon]

I second the first two post, in addition for UW use, get a camera with a HOTSHOE! Also very important, manual aperture and shutter control . Skip the strobe for now, but when you do, you'll be glad you have a hotshoe.

Olympus 5000 series, Nikon Coolpix or Canon...as long as they have a hotshoe.

 

[slymouse]

If you have not bought a system yet, I would not buy a Canon. I got a canon A70 less than two years ago, along with the underwater housing. While the camera still worked, it took great pictures. But it just died, one week ago. Doing a google search on the canon A70 or A60 will yield a small (or not so small) percentage of people that talk about what a lemon this camera can be and how crappy canon service is. I haven't called Canon myself yet, because it almost looks pointless from the posts on the web. So it looks like I'm going to sell the underwater housing and try another system. There is nothing wrong with the housing, and I've taken it down to 110ft without a problem, it's the camera itself that is the problem.

 

[alcina]

Wow. I have had Canon A series cameras for years with no problems whatsoever. My A20 is still producing great images in our hire fleet now! My A75 is my backup camera and I also use them with students and for hire.

Canon service here in WA is better than Sony or Nikon. You bring up a very good point - if the service in your area for any brand isn't up to scratch then you need to add that to your purchasing decisions.

Good luck choosing - as you aren't interested in Canons, I'd say next on my list would be the Olys.

 

[Snarffy]

Wow, thanks for all the suggestions so far...
I know *beans* about digital cameras. What features should I look for? Is it possible to get a semi-decent camera and housing for say... $300 or less? I'm starting grad school in the fall so I definitely don't have a lot of spare change to throw around. Ideally, I'd even like to spend under $200 but I'm thinking that will not get me much. For the people who recommended cameras above, why do you like that camera? How much did you spend?

In case the digitals are out of my range, does anyone have thoughts on the film cameras I wrote about? As a side note, I won an ebay auction last night for a Reefmaster RC for about $50. The price was too good to pass up. I figure if the camera ain't that great, it was cheap enough that I can still look into getting something else. So I welcome any tips from people who've used the RC, as well as recommendations on other cameras if you think this one isn't worth it's salt.

Three months till I visit the Mediterranean for the first time - can't wait!

Thanks again!!
Lori

 

[CUunderH2O]

Well, all I can say is digital is great because you can immediately see whether the photo turned out all right; if not, just erase it and take the shot again (if your subject hasn't moved!). With film, you don't find out if you got the shot until you get your film developed. Film can be more costly in the long run as you end up printing photos that didn't turn out. With digital, you can print only the ones that turned out, and just store or delete the rest.

If you're going to use your Reefmaster RC, practice with it in a pool or when you're out swimming before your trip so you can see how the photos turn out, and when you have your photos developed have them scanned onto a CD at the same time; then you can manipulate them if necessary: fix the colour, crop, etc. And email them to your friends & family, too.

As for what digital cameras to look at, I've already indicated I prefer Olympus. If you stick with the C-series you'll get good results, but they're not as easy to use and larger than other cameras. Canons are generally smaller & easier to use. Make sure you can get a housing to go with it; some older models don't have housings available. Think about things like batteries. My Olympus uses 4 AA's, I carry around 3 sets of rechargeables with me and recharging takes 4 hours. Other cameras use a proprietary battery so you need to buy a spare and keep both charged. Also, try to get a camera that's at least 4 MP, then you can crop the photos and still get good quality prints.

And yes, you might be able get a decent used digital camera/housing for under $300 from eBay.

For digital camera reviews, check out: http://www.dpreview.com.

I know there's a website to check whether your camera has an available housing, but I can't remember the name right now, maybe someone else can post it?

 

[alcina]

www.digideep.com

 

[Snarffy]

Ok so after everyone's posts, I've been poking around at various digital cameras. Pretty much, the criteria have been: 4+ mp, canon or oly (I have no clue where else to look), and price. Ideally, I'd love to find a cam that also has manual/aperture priority/shutter priority settings, but it seems those are out of my price range. Here's what I've found, I'd love comments on the cameras below:

Canon A80: 4mp, 3.6x dig zoom, 38-114 mm optical zoom. Camera & housing average price on ebay: $225-325

Canon A85: 4mp, 3.6x dz, 35-105mm oz. Av. Price: $250-350

Oly C-460Z/D-580Z (why is this listed on digideep.com as the same camera?):
4mp, 4x dz, 35-105 o.z. Av. price $160-260


Notes:
-The A95 and housing average about $450, too high for me. Ditto for the Oly C-4000, C-4040 and C-5000. Particularly because the housing for the 4000/4040 was not available on ebay, so I would be buying it at an MSRP of $280. Camera itself was only about $200 on ebay.
-I've heard the C-series of Oly's are good, so what is the C-460/D-580 thing?

I'd love recommendations on the above cameras based on ease of use, ability to grow, and quality of pictures. Of course, I still welcome comments on the film cameras too, and anything else I should know!!!

Thanks again...
Lori