Welcome to ScubaBoard, an online scuba diving forum community where you can join over 100,000 divers from around the world discussing all things related to Scuba Diving. To gain full access to ScubaBoard you must register for a free account.
As a registered member you will be able to:
Participate in over 500 dive topic forums and browse from over 3,000,000 posts.
Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
Post your own photos or view from 80,000 user submitted images.
Gain access to our free classifieds marketplace to buy, sell and trade gear, travel and services.
Use the calendar to organize your events and enroll in other members' events.
All this and much more is available to you absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact the ScubaBoard Support Team.
Hello, i am completely new to this forum. I am a Open Water diver, however i am not a PSD. I have completed numerous PSD related courses and have apretty good understanding of overall concepts, not an expert diver in way shap or form. I am a firefighter/paramedic on a Urban / suburban fire department full time and part of our rescue team responsible for heavy vehicle extrication, trench, con space, swift water, rope, collapse.
We do not have a dive team nor do we have a dive team close at all for a chance of a rescue. By the time a dive team would get to our scenes it will most assuredly be a recovery. Most of our rescue team has varyying levels of rec dive training and would be fine with completing PSD courses however our department is not interested in creating a dive team.
Wouldn't this system or any of the comparable systems like this one be a much better option than trying to just hold your breath or waiting for a team to get there and do the recovery. I think that we are in the business of saving lives and this seems like a valuable tool that could save lives. Also, to the point about the first officer arriving on scene and donning the gear and diving in rather that setting up command and ics and awaiting a team. A fire crew arriving on scene of a house fire with a probable rescue situation will most likely disregard the 2 in 2 out requirements in the interest of conducting a quick rescue. Should the same not apply to a relatively shallow, probable rescue situation?
Jonathan - first off welcome to the board and good on you to chime in. Your question is a good one.
I understand exactly where you're coming from on this we certainly DO want to make a difference and do everything we can to make a save. Thats why we do what we do. But its not our call to determine the risk/benefit analysis of our job - that's between management and city council (unfortunately it all comes down to dollars).
It is definately our job to make sure we return home to our families safe and unscathed. We should never put our people in any situation where we can't 100% get them back safely in PSD. Too many things can go wrong with this contraption even without taking it into an entanglement rich overhead environment like a vehicle IMO (limited air, temp exposure, bio/toxin exposure, no topside comms, disorientation etc).
Would you go into a known hazmat area without PPE? How about with just a dust mask? Where do you draw the line?
Another aspect you might want to consider is that if your mangement sees it can get away with doing more for less (with less) it'll be extremely hard to pursuade them later on to get the gear you really need to do it properly - if you ever want to get a team going in the future. Once you start short cutting you'll keep short cutting (to finish my earlier statement). If you're really serious about this why not look into organizing a volunteer team? Just make sure you get started in the right way. Use methods, equipment and procedures that are proven to work SAFELY.
Our team is not all that busy compared to other teams on here. We don't do U/W extrication, deep water or sub-ice PSD work. I believe that we do surface ice and non-overhead PSD diving really well. We probably should be doing PSD ice as it would be used almost half the time up here but we haven't been able to get managemnet to go for it yet.
A couple of us even ice dive recreationally but the team absolutely will NOT perform PSD ice diving until we're properly trained AS A TEAM. It would be easy enough to get cheap ice dive training from any dive shop and say we're "ice divers" (that's what was done in the past here) but until management gives us what we really need to do this job properly NONE of our guys will be put at risk.
Don't forget that we didn't put the victim there. Adding another victim that may be one of our own is not going to do any good. The public will expect us to do the best we can within our abilities. If our abilities are lacking then it is management that should recieve the criticism.
I understand your agency doesn't have a dive team but these "rapid entry systems" require "divers" since they ARE dive units ... just smaller than most.
I am curious to know...
How much does one of these units cost? Does anyone know the MSRP?
I would believe that the costs for these units and comparable "conventional" SCUBA equipment are pretty close to the same. Both require a SCUBA regulator and SPG. Both require a BC. Both require a compressed air cylinder.
I find 13 cf cylinders for sale at $105, 19 cf at $120 and 30 cf at $130. Normal 80 cf cylinders sell online at $135 and that is about what I buy them for at my local dive store. So is it safe to assume that the only savings may be $15-$30 for a smaller cylinder? If the cost savings for a "rapid entry system" is greater than $30, then the only other explanation is either a CHEAP regulator or a CHEAP BC.
I value my life higher than $30 and plan to stick to a standard 80 CF cylinder and I don't plan to use a CHEAP regulator or BC to protect my life, the life of a teammate or the life of a citizen. A conventional SCUBA unit takes up about the same space as a SCBA unit on an engine and can be donned just as fast. I plan to use a "real" SCUBA unit!
I still am not "sold" on the idea of "rapid entry systems."
There is a place for the rapid diver but it is a limited place. The cost is so close to the cost of full gear that it shouldn’t be an issue.
We have discussed this here in the past so a search should retrieve it.
It depends on where you are, your diving conditions, the type of operation and many other factors. BUT you can not just classify the unit as a grab and go unit for anyone. It takes a preferably PSD that is well trained in the unit and its operation to conduct a safe rescue.
In the past and it will happen again in the future, a want to do the right thing fireman or LEO will jump in to save someone without regard for their own safety. The result is more victims. What sense does that make?
Several years ago we had a couple of our Deputies jump in to perform a rescue. Without going into details we had two added to the list. They were both rescued but the incident could have gone the other direction resulting in an “I wanted to do good motorcade”.
Would the RD be a good unit for teams like us in the north? It’s a plain and simple NOPE. Would it work well in the 10,000 lakes in Minnesota? Maybe not, they have lots of shallow waters but as have severe winters.
Would they work in irrigation canals? I’d caution against that but they may work just fine in the warmer shallow, clear, waters in the southern states.
There is no gear substitute for doing it right with the proper training. I venture to say I can get suited up just as fast, if not faster in my on-board gear than I could in the RD.
Do your research and a lot of it. IMHO No team, No rescues. Leave it to those trained or get your own operation going. A recreational diver can have all the PSD training in the world and still not be a PSD. It is very much a mental thing.
thank you all for not boooing me out immediately. I will add that i am located in the north texas area so waters are generally warm. I'm gladd to see all the input on this topic. Not necessarily my same viewpoint but thats what makes it great huh?
Texas is much more suitable for the RD than us just from a weather standpoint.
But I do have a serious question about it. Seeing how it is a small compact unit what ever happened to “Everything Is BIG in Texas”? Have you guys been lying all this time?
Gary D.
__________________
What ever you do in life do it well and do it safe.
You may avoid cold water exposure in the warm water but with that is usually an increase in bio/toxins that are even worse around populated areas in smaller inland waterways. You'd almost be assured of e-coli and giardia exposure which won't kill a healthy individual but would lay you up for an extended period of time. Maybe hepititis or a host of other fecal coliforms are really bad news.
Add any of the hydrocarbons from storm water or run off concentration will be more lethal as a carcinogen and aspiration pneumonia.
Even worse are the fretilizers and herbicides that wash in. Too much of these at the wrong time and you're done
These are just the generally known stuff that you'd find almost everywhere (even sparsely populated places like Canada). Unknown chemicals and illegal hazamat dumping is something entirely different and is fairly common but you may never know it.
This is why I'd advise FULL dry encapsulated suits with FFM. Basically, if you won't drink it full exposure protection is advised. Standard scuba doesn't cut it in this milenium
I completely agree with you on the hazmat asspects of this, and i must say i love all the feedback i can get from this forum. I have another question though, knowing that there are chemicals, toxins, waste, etc.. in waters especially flood type high water incidents, do you then think that for warm water regions a wetsuit is not suitable protection for swift water rescue incidents? This is currently the most popular suit choice for texas swift water rescue, however i do know that most PSD teams use encapsulating dry suits. Also, thinking about rates of absorbtion of the most common flood chemicals and the duration of the exposure when doing a short (10-20 min) rescue only dive? Meaning how much can you really get exposed to on a very short dive? Thanks
Linear Mode
