ZEAGLE Rapid Diver Unit

[bridgediver]

Hi jesquitteri

Thanks for chiming in. I'm glad you like your units so much.

1) I would agree that a small tank would be lighter than a larger one so I can see that this would be of benefit

2) Has the neighboring team been trained (and practice!) in rapid deployment? Is their gear set-up for rapid deployment? As I said to Chris we can usually have a diver in the water fully geared inside of 3min from the time they begin to suit up (its on video). How long is it taking the neighboring team? How long does it take your team?
Most importantly, does each of the 3 of us have the same capabilities as divers (see below)

3) Have to disagree with the choice of the tank location on these units - especially in zero vis.
-The first place where we may encounter an entanglement is on the bottom, right where this tank is located.
-We'd also be dragging it through mud/slit etc which is not the best place for our life support gear no matter how its made.
-Its also in our "work space". I'm sure I don't need to tell you that at times we use our entire ventral side of our body to search. Theres been many times where a diver has discovered the target from his fin or body contacting it. This tank here will interfere with that capability
-In a true zero vis situation how does he protect and disentangle it when he can't even tell what he's sticking his face into?
I say keep the tanks on the back where they are out of the way and are less prone to get tangled in the first place. If they get tangled up its no big deal to send the back-up diver down to help.


I appreciate your remarks but what I really am curious about is how the units are deployed. If they can accomplish the job with the same margin of safety as the procedures that most of us already use then I'd be happy with them too. So far nobody has been able to describe this and/or answer my questions.
If you're so inclined, could you please describe how your team makes these functional

1) What is your SOG for a dive profile?
-how many team members need to be on scene before the diver descends and what are their roles?
- max depth, max bottom time, max amount of total time in the water (how many dives)
- do you keep track of diver air consumption? Both before and during the dive?
2) how is the diver equipped?
- size of tank (30cuft?)
- is there a redundant air source (type and size)? Can it be used as a bailout?
- is he tethered (assuming low or zero vis)?
3) Contingency plan
- is there a back-up diver (or 2)? How are they equipped?
4) What environmental protection is worn?

If anyone else uses these units could please answers these questions that would be great

thanks

mark

Originally Posted by Jesquittieri

Rapid Diver = rescue diving Vs search and recovery.

I am with a Fire Department in SW Florida that covers one of the most complex water environments anywhere. My area of responsibility has hundreds of retention ponds, golf course ponds, naturally occurring lakes/ponds, and hundreds of miles of canals along the infamous Alligator Alley. The quick response of the Rapid Diver has been very successful.

Real life rescue scenarios;
1-Canal along I-75 and

The canals that run on both sides of I-75 has a perimeter of chain link fencing, some areas have the addition of barbed wire. There is a steep 10-15 foot embankment depending on the level of the canal. Zero visibility, weeds, grasses and rocks, not to mention the wildlife (alligators) has made successful rescues in the past nearly impossible. That was until we went to deployed Rapid Diver on our rescue trucks. No more heavy equipment or awkward uneven/unbalanced walking that led to premature fatigue. With all of the above mentioned obstacles quick deployable, lightweight gear is most advantageous factor to mitigate the call.

2-Neighboring Fire Depts. still uses the standard 80 cu ft aluminum for rescues.

Because of the large stretch of water that my department, our neighboring dept. which still use the traditional setup, sometimes respond to the same dive calls.
Both departments regularly arrive on scene at the same time. I can tell you, we beat them in the water 100% of the time. We have our divers fully packed out either waiting for further information or in the water performing rescue, while they are still getting geared up.

Rapid Diver = rescue diving not search and recovery.

3-Training Scenarios

My fire department regularly performs training that focus on real life rescue diving. Our last exercise involved dealing with zero visibility entanglement using nets and other hazards. Rescue divers wearing the Rapid Diver were out of the water in half the time of the back mounted divers. The beauty of the Rapid Diver is in its configuration. The tank is ideally situated in the front where the diver can easily protect, disentangle if necessary and manage

[Sea-Diver]

Mark,

Thanks for the dialog. You have excellent questions and I am sure they are also of interest to other divers in that work in the public safety dive profession. This is a good time to clear the air about safety the Rapid Diver. I hope you get a chance to demo one for yourself to experience the positive attributes of the system first hand.

I think your quote hits the core of this thread:

You mentioned in your post: From what I can see the only way that a diver can be deployed faster than a properly deployed guy in standard gear is if they are cutting corners in safety somewhere.

From its inception, the Rapid Diver was developed with the assistance of public safety divers that are active in the PSD community. We learned early on that there are certain inherent factors which actually make the Rapid Diver system safer in application than standard dive gear, all achieved without cutting corners in safety.

Here is a quick description of the safety features.

All of the components on the Rapid Diver are easier to manage in the front mount tank configuration because there is nothing you can't reach. Especially important is easy access to the air supply knob, important if you forget to turn your air on before going in. The unit weighs in at about 30 lb. which is about 40 lb. lighter then standard gear. The lighter weight unit reduces fatigue and helps with a better breathing rates. Less drag through the water also contributes to better air consumption, we have had reports of over 40 minute bottom times with the 30 cu ft steel tank. The ability to add the redundant air tank (6 cu ft, 13 cu ft) to the front mount configuration is also a plus for helping eliminate entanglement issues but still providing useable back up air and, the back is clean and free of things that like to catch on submerged hazards, especially rope and line (monofiliment is the worse). Entanglement is one of the worst case scenarios facing PSD's and should be practiced often.

As Jesquittieri mentioned in his post:


My fire department regularly performs training that focus on real life rescue diving. Our last exercise involved dealing with zero visibility entanglement using nets and other hazards. Rescue divers wearing the Rapid Diver were out of the water in half the time of the back mounted divers. The beauty of the Rapid Diver is in its configuration. The tank is ideally situated in the front where the diver can easily protect, disentangle if necessary and manage.

One of the worst places to have an entanglement issue on your gear is on your 1st stage/valve on the back mount system, right were you can't reach it. This is one area that is extremely difficult if not impossible to access with your hands. If your bail out 19 is attached directly to your 80 then you would have to ditch your entire unit plus the bailout to make an ascent to the surface.

One of the misconceptions about a front mount tank system is that it gets in the way. Most divers remark at how the tank seemingly disappears in the water. Once in the water the tank placement provides ideal weight geometry and with a thickness of only 5 inches you barely know it is there. The tank also serves as a perfect place to for shears, a light and a back up Z knife. I have crawled on the bottom many times and the tank simply serves as a bumper. Any entanglement on the system can be easily managed with full access to all parts of the unit.

You are more likely to be put into a complicated entanglement situation with a back mount opposed to a compact front mount system.

Here is an article about a diver that got his 1st stage valve caught on a buoy rope.

Cape Cod: Scuba diver drowns near mouth of canal

The body of a scuba diver was pulled from the frigid waters alongside a jetty at the easternmost mouth of the Cape Cod Canal yesterday afternoon.

Bruce J. Switzer, 42, of West Yarmouth drowned in the Cape Cod Bay area near Town Neck Beach - a location notorious for strong currents, officials said.

"We determined that this was a tragic, accidental drowning," Sandwich Police Sgt. Joseph Cotter said.

For almost two hours, rescue crews from the Sandwich fire department and the U.S. Coast Guard combed the area surrounding Scusset Harbor for a man reported missing by his wife around 4 p.m.

It was unclear to authorities yesterday how Switzer drowned, but he was diving alone.

Switzer might have become entangled in some line, possibly attached to an underwater buoy or lobster trap, according to Timothy McMahon, the fire captain in charge of the rescue effort.

Officials said Switzer's diving equipment appeared to be functioning correctly, although he was missing a piece to his wetsuit. When he was found by authorities, Switzer wasn't wearing a buoyancy control device commonly used by divers.

Switzer's wife called 911 after her husband was overdue returning to shore, Cotter said. He apparently entered the water from the shores near Horizons on Cape Cod Bay restaurant.

Three divers from the fire department and a Coast Guard helicopter were soon dispatched to search for Switzer, who was eventually located about 300 feet offshore near the craggy jetty.

Searchers had to battle a strong, easterly moving current that looped back into the canal before finding Switzer's body.

While it was unclear why Switzer was scuba diving, several bystanders said the area is a popular scuba spot to search for lobsters.

In total, about six members of the police department and 12 from the fire department were involved in the search as the sun tucked into the clouds.

Kim Squire of the district attorney's crime scene unit and Sandwich police officer Jason Keene are investigating the incident because it was an unattended death.


Speed Saves Lives
Chris

[bridgediver]

Hi Chris

Originally Posted by Sea-Diver

I think your quote hits the core of this thread:

You mentioned in your post: From what I can see the only way that a diver can be deployed faster than a properly deployed guy in standard gear is if they are cutting corners in safety somewhere.

Yes. Absolutely that's what I've been trying to figue out

comments on your points:
1) access to the tank knob - no fewer than 3 seperate people check to make sure this is on prior to the dive as per SOP (diver, tender, IC/safety guy). Also, divers should be trained in their OW classes to be able to reach their back mounted tank valves just in case.
not an issue

2) weight. Divers should be fit enough to manage their gear despite what it is and they also have help in the form of thier tender.
The wet weight of either rig would be virtually the same anyway so I'm not sure where it would improve air consumption(?).
Not a safety concern

3) drag. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the tank situated lateral to the body whereas back mounted tanks are in-line with the body? If so, they would be about the same for streamlining - back mounted tanks perhaps even less drag even for 2 tanks.
Not a safety issue either

4) air consumption - certainly the biggest safety factor here in my mind. I agree that with a nice casual training dive an experienced diver can probably do 40min at 15ft but thats best case scenario, right? We have to think of worst case - compare your own diver's SAC rates with training and actual calls. There's a huge difference

5) second air source. I'm very curious as to how this is being managed by the teams that use this sysytem. You mention it as optional (on the tank? or on the leg?) so I'm assuming that most users aren't using it. Who uses it and how? What size etc?
Without it we severely limit options for a diver in trouble and alone.

Originally Posted by Sea-Diver

Entanglement is one of the worst case scenarios facing PSD's and should be practiced often.

You're only half right here.
Entanglement training definately should be practiced often BUT the worst case scenario is running out of air not being entangled (which is why I have been so alarmed by the size of your tank and the possibility that it is also the only air source available).
Being tangled in something will never kill anyone as long as they a) don't panic and b) don't run out of air
Lots of practice and training should prevent the panic and a good plan/procedure (that is also practiced) for ensuring the trapped diver ALWAYS has air should prevent any PSD fatality. I don't exagerate when I said that with our procedures we could have the diver trapped for hours and it wouldn't matter because we can maintain his air supply while we work to free him. I don't see how this can be done with the diver begining with a single 30cuft

Originally Posted by Sea-Diver

One of the worst places to have an entanglement issue on your gear is on your 1st stage/valve on the back mount system, right were you can't reach it. This is one area that is extremely difficult if not impossible to access with your hands. If your bail out 19 is attached directly to your 80 then you would have to ditch your entire unit plus the bailout to make an ascent to the surface.

True in that the diver cannot realistically clear his own entanglement from here. But he doesn't have to. He would simpily call for the back up diver to come down and clear it for him. It is far easier for someone else to clear an entanglment from any location (even the front) then it is for the diver to untangle himself - most of the time they simply tangle themselevs up more.
There should be very little need for a diver to ditch his rig and run with the bailout if the back up is available to free the guy (even if it takes hours). If we ditch the rig and try to pull the bailout and run we can't be absolutely certain that we still aren't trapped to the bottom - and now its worse because we are probably free of the tether with nothing more than a mere bailout to sustain us

Originally Posted by Sea-Diver

One of the misconceptions about a front mount tank system is that it gets in the way. Most divers remark at how the tank seemingly disappears in the water. Once in the water the tank placement provides ideal weight geometry and with a thickness of only 5 inches you barely know it is there. The tank also serves as a perfect place to for shears, a light and a back up Z knife. I have crawled on the bottom many times and the tank simply serves as a bumper. Any entanglement on the system can be easily managed with full access to all parts of the unit.

This just doesn't seem logical to me. Most of the debris that the divers scoop up is found on their front. This is why its important to keep it as clean of gear as possible.
We'll just have to disagree on this sorry. The fact that you refer to it as a "bumper" suggests to me that it is going into places that it probably shouldn't(?)

Originally Posted by Sea-Diver

You are more likely to be put into a complicated entanglement situation with a back mount opposed to a compact front mount system..

Again. I disagree.
BUT. That's not really the point. Unless we can with complete certainty say that our divers will never become entangled we need find a way where we can disentangle them 100% of the time and get them to the surface alive.
Most of the time a diver will be able to disengage himself. In the event that he cannot he needs the assitance of the back up (applies to both front mounted and back mounted tanks).



Here's my concern
The diver must have sufficient air for the back up to arrive and provide more air (in the form of another "stage" or pony)
He also needs to have enough air for the back up to arrive if his primary air source fails (a pony)
If you do the math with a margin of safety and take into account actual op like conditions (higher SAC rates) the 30cuft is too small for the diver to survive until the back up arrives.

We can talk all we want about how many inches of space things take and speed of deployment but when it comes down to it. I need to be sure that this gear will get my divers to the surface unharmed 100% of time in any situation.



Unless you have further information about the article you quoted it doesn't say that he got his valve tangled anywhere. It says: "...might have become entangled in some line, possibly attached to an underwater buoy or lobster trap..." nothing about what was entangled (fin, valve, arm etc). If he was entangled then wouldn't they have found him still tangled? Its unclear one way or the other.

For the sake of the discussion though, lets assume that he did in fact get entangled.
The cause of death is "drowning" not "entanglement". This guy died because he (may have) got tangled on something and couldn't get free. After he exhausted his air supply he drowned. If he had:
a) a back up diver or a buddy
b) more air
he probably could have gotten free or have had the time to have gotten free.

Its actually a good comparison as he was solo diving by himself which would be exactly the same as a PSD doing a dive without a back up or contingency plan something I really hope that PSD teams are evolving away from

mark

[jchartranft]

Hi Mark,

I have been reading these posts with growing interest because of the situations we have here in Florida (especially) where there are frequent immersion accidents.

As an avid tech diver, I value DIR and traditional experience and clearly understand the need for standard equipment within the search and recovery areas of PSD. However, I am also firmly convinced (and opinionated) that the RapidDiver system is paramount to actual rescue.

I have been in the Rapid system for a while now and though I am not a PSD, I clearly see the benefits of a quick donning, rapid entry system and the Rapid is currently the best out there. There are points of contention that can be made, but I ask that we all take a look at the actual “mission” or “situation” for a given potential rescue. The first responder (whether PD or FD), if equipped with a rapid entry system, has a tremendous chance to actually save a life. You will not be in position to actually save anyone without the equipment to dive, and often enough, there is just no room for a traditional SCUBA rig and I assure you that I can be in the water with a rapid entry system much faster than if I were to use SCUBA gear and be just as safe.

What I am trying to say is that given the real estate on FD trucks or in PD cars and the fact that every team member or officer can be certified, rapid entry systems are extremely valuable. These men and women put their lives on the line every day and personally I think providing a quality system to safely allow for rescues is a right they deserve.

I know that here in Florida, the dive rescue teams and truck crews are anxious to have a real chance to save someone as opposed to a recovery and as with elsewhere in the country and world, we have had our share of “what if’s”.

The Divers Chance Foundation (DCF) (The Divers Chance Foundation) was established earlier this year to support underprivileged divers as well as Wounded Warriors by providing no cost equipment and training as needed. As a result of interacting with several FD’s in Naples, DCF donated 10 complete RapidDiver systems to the Golden Gate FD and is working with all of the Naples Public Safety Dive teams to obtain grants to provide a rapid entry system for each crew member. The mission is to save if we can.

Thanks for the awesome dialog you all have posted and I look forward to gathering more data, opinions, and experiences for the DCF site.

Dive safe,
Joe Hartranft

[Surf Expo]

I have used the rapid diver several times over the last two years at Weeki Wachee Springs. It is a great piece of gear and it is on my list to acquire. You can be geared up in less than 90 seconds. I would look for the rig that has the first first stage and tank valve as a single piece. It streamlines a small, first responder rig, even more so.
Go to this link if you have not. Rapid Diver Compact Scuba Systems if you contact Christopher DeFelice at rapid diver he is the creator of this gear.

[Surf Expo]

Here in Florida we have many retention ponds and canals along roadways. Most are relatively shallow but deep enough to drown in all the same, meaning probably 12 deep or less in most cases. I suspect that entanglement in most retention ponds where a vehicle has already cleared the path is not common. Possible but not common. The most critical factor is time for the occupants of a submerged vehicle. If law enforcement had a rapid diver in each vehicle it would be a great plus for the first on the scene FD or PD.