Spain steals treasure from finders. US Govt. helps

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Jim Lapenta

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Maybe Odyssey should change the way they operate? Salvaging other people's artifacts without permission can be costly. Also, I'm highly skeptical of the $500 Million price tag. Silver coins just aren't worth THAT much. Unless you're Mel Fischer. Especially when you'd flood the market with over 500,000 coins... What would be the real value?
 
If any country wants their treasure that was lost,that country should of gotten off their asses and got it themselves. Spain could of even hired a firm to do the search for them if they did not have the technology to do it themselves. Spain had like 300+ years to go after the treasure themselves. They could of even assigned their Navy to do it.. Hell,Spain stole the gold and silver from the native people that were here to begin with, and killed them off with war and diseases. A real holocaust for the natives.
Too bad.This should of been a case of finders keepers losers weepers!
 
Artifacts are easily worth $500m. Most of the coins are gold not silver. Smelting would not help either - antique and historical value supersedes bullion.

Personally, I would first establish clear ownership rights BEFORE wasting $3M. This was an open and shut case from the beginning. If I were an investor, I'd be pissed with Odyssey. This has nothing to do with the US Government doing anything wrong. Maritime Law is notoriously tilted toward governmental recovery of artifacts.
 
Wikipedia:
Odyssey claim to have recovered "over 500,000 silver coins weighing more than 17 short tons (15 t), hundreds of gold coins, worked gold, and other artifacts, it is believed that this recovery constitutes the largest collection of coins ever excavated from a deep-ocean site."

Hundreds of gold coins. Gold coins from the 19th century can fetch more than raw value of gold, but since they're not as rare as older coins, the historical value isn't as much as RARE coins. Rare 8 Escudo coins (cobs) from 16th and 17th century can fetch as high as $20,000 or more. (sedwickcoins.com)
 
Hundreds of gold coins. Gold coins from the 19th century can fetch more than raw value of gold, but since they're not as rare as older coins, the historical value isn't as much as RARE coins. Rare 8 Escudo coins (cobs) from 16th and 17th century can fetch as high as $20,000 or more. (sedwickcoins.com)

That's what they're reporting... I wonder what was actually brought up vs stored?
 
I don't want to bore the sh** out of everyone on the board, but this is actually a really fascinating area of the law. It is also hopelessly complex.

At the risk of grossly, grossly oversimplifying, the US tends to believe in the doctrine of "abandonment" whereby if cargo is lost at sea, if you haven't tried to salvage it after a certain amount of time, it becomes ownerless, and first person to find it usually gets to keep it. Most other countries in the world (including the UK, and Spain) tend to believe that ownership continues by the original owner - it is just that the onwer cannot reach their property because it is underwater. If someone else brings it up, then they have claims against the property as a salvor, but the original owner (or his descendants) still own it.

Of course, even if you accept the "original owner" theory, many of the people who shipped these treasures expropriated them by force from their previous owners, and often the previous owners will seek to claim they have better title than those who took them by force.

Then you have a problem area called the law of subrogation. What this basically says is that if you claim against your insurers for total loss of your cargo, and they pay up, ownership then transfers to your insurers. Of course in a nice simple world, every ship and its cargo would have one insurer, and no reinsurers, but sadly, in the real world, life is not like that. In the English courts Lloyds of London once famously successfully claimed golden bars salved off the Lutene off Holland which it had paid out an insurance claim in respect of 250 years previously.

Then you have the difficulty that all the different countries of the world apply their laws on different bases. Some apply their laws to any cargo lost within their Territorial waters. Others apply it to any vessel flagged in their country even if it founders in the Territorial waters of another state. Others apply what lawyers refer to as the lex fori (ie. the law of the court hearing the dispute) - usually when the claim is expressed as salvage. And of course it gets much more complicated when dealing with Federated countries.

Finally, you have the problem of "cultural heritage" laws which deem certain ancient and cultural property to belong to the state (at this stage, throw in legal problems relating to sovereign immunity in national courts), and "military remains" laws which offer special protection to wartime wrecks.

Lawyers are often accused of overcomplicating disputes. But treasure claims manage to get extremely complicated all on their own. I am not familiar with the Mercedes case mentioned in Jim's news item, but I am sure like so many of the others, it will make for interesting reading. The news report is surprising to me in two senses, firstly because it implies that the US courts of sided with the original owner rather than deeming the property abandoned (slightly against form), and secondly, it implies that the salvors have no claim in the property, which again, seems highly unusual. I am sure the case will repay detailed study.


Don't blame the military though. Blame the courts.
 
That's $%^&ed. Spain lost the ship in the Atlantic, putting it, I believe, in international waters. At the very least, the ship wasn't sitting in a home port in Spain, so the parallel with the USS Arizona is BS. The U.S. courts said they have no jurisdiction and thus had no right to order the treasure returned.

They should have given spain the gold back only AFTER spain released all the endangered bluefin tuna they've caught.
 
That's what they're reporting... I wonder what was actually brought up vs stored?


I would guess they overstate rather than understate, since they have stock prices to pump up when the make a big "score"
 
Without reading anything but jims title, my opinion would be are govt is getting some thing in return some how, even if it is the transaction to ship the treasure to spain. or the govt took something from them awhile ago.
 
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