Integrated weight vs. non-integrated

[emttim]

Alright, so because I'm bored, I read most of the thread on if modern dive gear is more efficient than the "old school" stuff, and inbetween that and other threads, it seems like a large amount of people seem to absolutely hate integrated weight and think it's a detriment to safety.

I don't mind spotlighting those of you who think that, so here's my question: In the realm of recreational diving with a buddy, why?

Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps some people are simply full of ****, but I'd prefer to find out which it is. I'm going to consider this question, as I said, in the realm of rec diving with a buddy...IE no stop diving, nothing that could be considered tec such as wreck penetration, etc.

As far as integrated weight goes, the argument (from what I can see) is that in the event you have to take off your BCD, there is a very real possibility of a runaway ascent to the surface. Ok, let's analyze that.

Here's the possible reasons I can think of for removing a BCD underwater:

1) You ran into a fishing net or something similar and got severely entangled. Ok, fine, but your buddy should be there to help you out and cut away the entanglement so you don't have to take off your scuba unit. If your buddy isn't around, then that's one thing, but if you're that entangled I doubt you'd shoot up to the surface anyway since you'll probably still be entangled even if you take your BCD off. And if not, then what's to stop you from simply taking the scuba unit off, hooking your legs into the shoulder straps and hugging the scuba unit with your legs while you cut the unit loose?

2) Your tank strap wasn't properly tightened and your tank is falling out. Well, this can be alleviated by not being an idiot and doing a pre-dive safety check.

3) Another release, strap, etc. is not adjusted properly which is creating either a hazard or an annoyance too strong to ignore. Again, this can be alleviated by not being an idiot and doing a pre-dive safety check.

4) Your tank valve wasn't opened enough and you're having trouble breathing from your reg. Same as #2 and #3 above in addition to simply having your buddy open the valve.

Outside of removing the BCD and a runaway ascent being possible, the only other detriment I can see is that the weight pockets can fall out which again, could cause a runaway ascent to the surface. Having faulty or crappy gear will cause problems, regardless of what the gear is. Weight pockets falling out shouldn't be an issue with a decent BCD, and again, an adequate pre-dive safety check to make sure the pockets are securely fastened.

So there's my thoughts on the matter. Tell me yours, I'm interested to know!

 

[psychocabbage]

When I first got mine, I lost a weight pocket while on a night shore dive. I never knew it until the following morning when I realized that I didnt have it in place. I didnt shoot off to the surface.. I dont do anything but warm water dive and dont wear any wetsuits for most of my diving.

I personally cant stand weight belts and prefer the integrated weights overall..

 

[RikRaeder]

I had a similar experience on a night dive, however I noticed that I seemed a BIT buoyant (I had just dropped one pound from my weights before the dive because I had been too heavy). Once we got into deeper water, I was fine, but pre-exit and entry were a little strange. Complete user error, I had unzipped the wrong pocket (pretty hard to do, but I found a way). Didn't shoot to the surface, though.

I actually had to remove me bcd the other day to make an adjustment (guess I'm an idiot), but I kept a firm grip on it indeed. Did notice that my body wanted to float, however due to my deathgrip on the scuba unit I didn't take off.

 

[Lake Muroc Diver]

Holy Mackerel, the comfort of integrated weights versus the weight belt is so monumental.
My BCD has an incredibly secure latching system. My dive buddy's, many of them just met on the dive boat, have never said that they are confused by the release system. And as a major safety backup, you can dump 1/2 now and the other 1/2 if the effect is not sufficient.
The only down side I know of is, the BCD with integrated weights weighs a ton with the full kit attached.

 

[Spimon]

I'm going the opposite way.

I have a Tusa 6900 (back inflate with integrated weights). Today I finished cutting off the weight pockets. What I've actually done is attach them with large zippers, so if I ever want to use them I can.

A few reasons I want to dive without the pockets attached.

1. I dont like the feel. With the pockets removed it leaves nothing under my arms except the cumberbund, which sits very flat against my waist. I no longer feel like my arms are 'cluttered' and they can fit beside me while diving. I generally feel more 'free' and don't feel like I'm wearing a big old clumsy scuba setup.

2. I can now remove my gear underwater to either adjust it, cut it free (hopefully never need to do) or whatever reason, without shooting to the surface (I rarely take it off, and a good hold on it solves that problem more or less).

3. Weights have fallen out of the pockets before. Not a hard problem to fix and was entirely my own fault, but this shouldn't happen anymore.

4. The pockets beside the weight-pockets are next to useless anyway. I can't really reach them when diving, and can't fit anything in them anyway. Everything I need either straps onto me or clips onto the arm straps. Any 'treasures' I find go in a dilly bag I carry with me.

Some would tell me to buy a BP/W straight away. The way I've done it I have the choice of either weight system. I don't need anything as 'hardcore' as a BP/W, so this suits me fine

As with most things in diving, I don't think there's any major problem with either system in most cases (maybe in special circumstances, of course) and it basically comes down to what you feel more comfortable in.

 

[ZzzKing]

I dive with a weight belt for several reasons:

1. I just prefer to.
2. It's much cheaper than integrated weights, both in initial purchase and if you subsequently lose a pocket.
3. It's easily replacable no matter where in the world you're diving.
4. Maybe it's due to my lack of imagination but I'm having trouble picturing a rig in which having weight in the location that most integrated weight bc's have weight, ie in front of my tummy, would have a positive effect on my trim.
5. I personally think that anyone that would begin a thread with a statement like:

"Well, this can be alleviated by not being an idiot and doing a pre-dive safety check."

must surely be an idiot, and I wouldn't want to use the same gear as an idiot.

 

[hudson]

OP: 2-4 are non-issues.

As for 1, people dive solo. If I'm in a situation where I have to remove the BC, I certainly don't want to worry about maintaining a strong hold on the BC.

The other benefit of the weight belt is easy release on the surface. It's also cheap. I don't see any advantage to an integrated setup.

There are problems with the standard weight belt regarding both the buckle and the webbing. This design solves both:

65" Rubber Weight Belt with Wire Buckle from LeisurePro.com

 

[TSandM]

For me, there are three big problems with weight-integration. One is that some of the weight retention systems are really tenuous (some are not). Losing a significant amount of weight underwater, IF you are properly weighted (which many divers are not), means you cannot hold a stop on ascent, and that's a potential accident. Of course, weight belts can be lost, too; any weight which is easy to jettison on purpose has the possibility of being lost by accident.

The second objection I have is that the weight integration pockets often put the weight (for cold water divers, anyway) where it obligates a feet-down position in the water. Diving at a 45 degree angle to the bottom is inefficient, uncomfortable, wastes gas, and destroys the visibility for everybody behind you. Some well designed BCs have trim pockets that allow weight distribution -- My husband's SeaQuest Balance is one. But some have trim pockets that are at the level of the kidneys, which really doesn't help at all.

My third, and personal, objection to weight integration is that it makes the rig difficult to move around on land (or on a boat), and that loading heavy pockets into the BC once it's mounted on a tank can be quite difficult, especially on a charter boat. I personally find it much easier to sling a weight belt around my waist, and as I've just discovered, a nice belt with hard weights absolutely DISAPPEARS in the water.

I'll take a weight belt, and a rig that allows putting weight up on my back, any day.

 

[ArcticDiver]

The problem with added weights is making sure they don't get dumped accidentally. For that, as is the case with a lot of guys, I just don't have enough butt to keep that from happening without threading it through my crotch strap or somesuch.

The best answer for me is to either use integrated weights, or their equivalent, a DUI Weight Harness. Or, put pouches on my cam bands and put the weights there. Whatever works and is not a weight belt to slide off.

Like all types of equipment there are good and bad. That means the question is not: Integrated vs. Not Integrated? It is: What works best for the individual?

 

[trtldvr]

(Warning I am opinionated on this)

Do you mean evilgratrated???

My reasons for not liking them depends on which hat I am wearing at the time. I will start with the most petty and work up to the most deadly.

1. As a diver:
A. Most (I not know all) intergrated BCs have MUCH smaller pockets (I like Pockets)and come down further on the body.

B.The weight causes a lot of extra wear on the BC, requiring replacement (Manufactures like this)

C. Weight pouches get lost, and most manufacturers only sell them in sets.(See last note)

D. Dumping lead should be 1 handed. Many integrated systems require 1 hand for each pocket.

2. As a DM on a dive boat- Changing tanks for the customer with 20 lbs in his jacket just S#$%s!!

3. As an Instructor:
A. each manufacturer is proprietory. The Industry has not standardized their releases. Some pull forward, some pull down. Some need to squeezed, some don't.Some are beige, some are red, (This Would all be ok in if it was in a Dr. Suesse book, but it is not!!)

B.The dangers to a would be rescuer is huge. On many release systems the rescuer (soon to be 2nd victem) pulls the victem into them before the weight is released (not cool).

C. For any release system to be safe the diver must remember how to use it while on the edge of panic. This requires practice. There is at least 1 system out there (although I believe the manufacturer has dicontinued it) that requires being re-threaded after being used. I am an instructor for public safety diving (police & firefighters). The first day of a 2 week ,80 hour course, we do basic skills, of whitch weight removal is one. I have been asked numerous times if a weight belt could be worn for the skill instead of dumping the lead. I tell them only if they plan on wearing a belt for the rest of the coarse.

4. (Most Sobering). As a Sheriff's Office diver- First of all I have never done a recovery when the lead had been dropped. One case comes to mind (yes this person was overweighted). The diver had the BC fully inflated causing the BC to squeeze the weight pockets tight making them impossible to remove.

What ever type of weight system you use be very familiar with it. Know how to release your AND your buddies weights if a situation arises.

In an emergancy, use your head, lose the lead!

Safe dives
trtldvr
www.divealive.org

(let the flaming begin)