V Planner Deco Conservatism

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Sabado

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Location
Miami, FL
# of dives
200 - 499
I have been playing around with the V Planner computer deco model and have found that doing depths around the recreational limit with required deco on air:
For Example: 130ft for 20 minutes air/no deco gas

Would result in about 28 minutes of Deco even with a safety factor of nominal (zero).
This seems very long: NAVY Tables would have you do about 4 minutes of deco at 10 feet instead of the staggered stops from 70ft that would last over 26 minutes per the V Planner.

Does this make sense to anyone? Or is anyone seeing the same thing?
I think that the V Planner is probably more useful on longer/deeper dives, with mix, and a deco gas or two, where the computer would give you better deco profiles than using the tables.

Any thoughts?
 
I don't have it in front of me to confirm what you're seeing, bit it seems... odd. You sure you aren't looking at the total runtime?

Assuming I'd do that on air, my deco profile would be 15 minutes starting at 50 and weighted heavily around 20.
 
This is the V planner profile

DIVE PLAN
Surface interval = 1 day 0 hr 0 min.
Elevation = 0ft
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 130ft (2) Air 60ft/min descent.
Level 130ft 17:50 (20) Air 1.04 ppO2, 130ft ead
Asc to 60ft (22) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 60ft 0:40 (23) Air 0.59 ppO2, 60ft ead
Stop at 50ft 1:00 (24) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 3:00 (27) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 3:00 (30) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 6:00 (36) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Stop at 10ft 10:00 (46) Air 0.27 ppO2, 10ft ead
Surface (46) Air -30ft/min ascent.

V-Planner is more conservative than Navy Tables. I don't consider that a bad thing.
 
Open water issues are addressed by it certainly. Really I think it's in there so that deco levels are similar for oxygen deco and backgas deco.
 
O.K I understand what you are saying but not doing the last stop on air at 10 feet can really extend a schedule. e.g. the profile above but with the last stop at 20 feet gives:

Dec to 130ft (2) Air 60ft/min descent.
Level 130ft 17:50 (20) Air 1.04 ppO2, 130ft ead
Asc to 60ft (22) Air -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 60ft 0:40 (23) Air 0.59 ppO2, 60ft ead
Stop at 50ft 2:00 (25) Air 0.53 ppO2, 50ft ead
Stop at 40ft 4:00 (29) Air 0.46 ppO2, 40ft ead
Stop at 30ft 4:00 (33) Air 0.40 ppO2, 30ft ead
Stop at 20ft 27:00 (60) Air 0.34 ppO2, 20ft ead
Surface (60) Air -30ft/min ascent.

Which is an extra 11 minutes of deco. Not a huge deal but annoying . I always plan lost deco tables with the last stop at 10 feet. (I don't dive in big waves)
 
Interesting. Sure, the gradient is higher at 10 than 20, but that's a HUGE percentage time difference.

It surprises me that Vplanner is so much more conservative than MDL methodology for these depths. Deeper, Ratio tends to as or more conservative (with respect to runtime).
 
I play around with HLPlanner, which is free deco software, and found much the same thing.

More strikingly, if you put in profiles where you are within the NDL on the US Navy tables, it still can have you doing up on 13 minutes of deco! I put it down to "nominal conservatism" being a relative thing.
 
I play around with HLPlanner, which is free deco software, and found much the same thing.

More strikingly, if you put in profiles where you are within the NDL on the US Navy tables, it still can have you doing up on 13 minutes of deco! I put it down to "nominal conservatism" being a relative thing.

There has been a lot of windage about USN tables.

It usually ends up in a cheerleading session between at least two sides.

If you are going to approach decompression diving with USN tables, you should do so slowly and gradually, to validate for yourself and for your specific body type, whether those tables work for you, here defined as no clinical or sub-clinical symptoms of DCS.

You will be able to tell based on how miserable you feel afterwards. And if you test it in small enough steps, then it should not injure you (all bets off, however).

In your case, regarding air diving to 130 ft, you would first do a simple and slow bounce dive, down and back again, with some kind of safety stop. That should be fine, but if it turns out that you have a PFO you don't know about, it may become a major problem for you. You should definitely use some kind of safety stop procedure though, even though your USN does not prescribe it. This kind of dive represents the worst level of quasi-inert N2 levels with absolutely no gradient advantages during the deco phase. And that is probably why VPM gives such high "deco" times for many a USN "NDL" dive.

Then the next time you dive under similar conditions, stay for 1/2 of the NDL time. See how that feels.

Then after that, the full USN NDL time. See how that feels. I am assuming minimum surface intervals of at least a day, here, for you. If you feel like a truck hit you afterwards, that may be a clue that USN NDL time is really omitted deco in the real world. My money is on your getting a hit, at this level, however. I would bet that it is more likely than not. Especially if you have not adopted some kind of safety-stop procedure, or if the safety stop you do use is inadequate.

Then if all of the above were ok for you, start with a dive having 5 mins of time in excess of NDL, and see how you feel after the prescribed air deco. This of course assumes that you are already deco trained, which I find to be unlikely, or else you probably would not be considering or comparing air dives like this together with air for deco. But if you were deco trained, that would be the next thing to do.

The next step would be on another day with 10 mins in excess of NDL. See how that feels.

Gradually you would build up to a dive time needed for whatever reason you are doing these air dives with air deco.

This is called "ramping up," and it is taught as an SOP by many tech agencies, though not by all of them.

Most trained deco divers would dive to 130 ft with nitrox or trimix (called by various other catchy names as well).

Until you do all that, you really won't be able to satisfactorily judge what "nominal conservatism" really means.
 
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There has been a lot of windage about USN tables.

Ain't that the truth.

Doing air dives with no deco gas just is just stupid so I don't really see they point in trying to validate which profile is "correct". They all are and at the same time none of them are!
 
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