Lost Buddy Marker

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Seems all this would be easier if we tie in our spools, and drop a cookie on the exit side as if it were a T.

Why bother pulling out a cookie? Why not just use the clip from the reel to indicate direction of exit?

 

[Cave Diver]

Since we are on the subject of training, I believe that Jim Wyatt also offers a refresher course for people that haven't been in caves for a while. I'd like to invite him to add a few words on behalf of that class if he would.

Jim, did you see this post?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Jim, did you see this post?

Yes, thanks! I made reference to the refresher courses in post #80.

I do them at Devil's Eye/ear. We can work on anything you want. Primary reel running, gas sharing, proper S-drills, complex navigation, properly tying a reel to a line after being lost off of the line

PM or call me.

 

[Cave Diver]

Yes, thanks! I made reference to the refresher courses in post #80.

I do them at Devil's Eye/ear. We can work on anything you want. Primary reel running, gas sharing, proper S-drills, complex navigation, properly tying a reel to a line after being lost off of the line

PM or call me.

Good deal, thanks! I hadn't seen that post yet, but wanted to be sure people knew about your offer.

 

[PfcAJ]

I don't worry about leaving a backup light on the line. We plan for one major failure. Losing my buddy is a major failure. Losing my primary would be a second major failure. Losing the remaining backup light would be a third major failure, and if that happens, I am having a very bad day. Not to mention that I would almost always have a third buddy with three lights . . . We carry three because we might need spares in an emergency. Like carrying extra gas, that emergency can take various forms, and needed to leave one on the line for my buddy is one of those shapes.

The backup light serves 2 purposes. One (unlikely) is that your buddy is having light issues of his own. The 2nd, (and imho most important) is that if he is covering his light looking for the glow of yours...and you aren't there...something is glowing and drawing him toward the line and path that you exited on.

I was on a dive recently where had I entered at a sink1 and traveled upstream, vis was downright gnarly. We traversed to another offset sink(2) and surfaced to look around. If we had reversed that dive and entered at sink 2 and went downstream, we would have passed the double arrows after a bit. If a buddy separation had happened on the otherside of those double arrows and I placed an arrow pointing to sink 1 (consistent with the marking of the cave) and my buddy followed it, he wouldn't have made it since the line was broken and covered with debris (logs and stuff) before sink 1. Plus, it was dark out, so following the glow of sunlight wasn't an option. Do not trust an exit that you have not PERSONALLY verified.

Not every cave has arrows every 100ft. In some, you might be going a good while before you come across an arrow, if at all. Arrow+cookie (real real close together) is the answer to this. It has your name on it (even in raunchy siltouts, if you chill for a second or two, it will clear just enough to read black sharpie on white plastic) and is real obvious that is isn't a regular garden variety arrow.

 

[piikki]

No where in my discussion did I suggest an arrow was to be used, nor did I intend to insinuate it was a captital crime if you did so. :headscratch:

You have not verified Olsen as an exit so you cannot go that way. You will have tied your reel on the line and need to indicate your direction of travel. If you use the clip from your reel you will have then properly identified your exit direction/direction of travel and have NOT left contradicting markers on the line.


Using reel clips in this manner, to indicate direction of travel makes the question a moot issue.

I wrote an article that was published in one of the recent Underwater Speleology issues regarding this issue. I can send it to anyone who would like to read it.


I do offer refresher classes occasionally. I charge no fee for these but always ask for a $50 donation to North Florida Springs Alliance

I was not really pinpointing you personally but there is definitely this tone in the thread that dropping a contradictory arrow in cave is a big no-no. This is leaving me kind of confused as, like I said I was not trained to use cookies (and I am starting to feel like I have quite a gap right in that area!) Also, I do not quite understand the reel advice as per this discussion regarding lost buddy. If I am not off the line myself, I will have the reel in my hand coming TO the line. I will not be clipping it on the line (to point snaps any which way instead of arrows).

I was actually taught to use the snap just like you show, pointing where I went/towards assumed exit. I was also told that to avoid confusion I could put an arrow in addition to the snap if I feel the situation is getting hairy, and it would help my buddy who comes to the reel. However, this would only be useful when I have been looking for the line/found the line myself and tied my reel into it. Not in the scenario we are discussing. (Unless I just dumped my reel on the line snapping to the right direction instead of arrow because I am now worried leaving my arrows in some situations!!! )

Would you run a refresher course for someone in need of cookie special ed? I am going to have to get my cookie knowledge up to speed. I would be very interested. I was looking at your web site, and looks like you are pretty busy when we are heading down to Fl in Nov though :depressed: Is that calendar pretty much up to date?

 

[Cave Diver]

Also, I do not quite understand the reel advice as per this discussion regarding lost buddy. If I am not off the line myself, I will have the reel in my hand coming TO the line. I will not be clipping it on the line (to point snaps any which way instead of arrows).

What they are referring to is the situation where you find yourself lost from your buddy and off the line. If you can't visually see the line, you should stop, take out your safety reel/spool secure it solidly to the cave (floor, rock, wall, whatever) and start a lost line search. Once you find the mainline, you will secure your safety line to it and proceed from there.

Once you locate the lost line and tie into it use the clip to indicate direction of travel instead of clipping back to your own line.

If you're not lost off the line, this won't apply.

For our non-cave trained readers, the thread has drifted a bit from the original topic, but all the information so far has still been relevant to a lost buddy situation and some excellent response and discussion has taken place.

 

[Meng_Tze]

..... It has your name on it (even in raunchy siltouts, if you chill for a second or two, it will clear just enough to read black sharpie on white plastic) and is real obvious that is isn't a regular garden variety arrow.

I had a situation where it took about 20 min to clear up ..... Could not read my gauges, let alone a note. Light was SO diffused, there was just one hue around me. I was on a rebreather and had hours of time to wait for it to clear up. An OC diver with increased SAC could find that 20 min is not enough anymore.

I still think that any special marker for lost buddy needs to be recognizable in complete silt out (i.e. by touch)

 

[piikki]

What they are referring to is the situation where you find yourself lost from your buddy and off the line. If you can't visually see the line, you should stop, take out your safety reel/spool secure it solidly to the cave (floor, rock, wall, whatever) and start a lost line search. Once you find the mainline, you will secure your safety line to it and proceed from there.

If you're not lost off the line, this won't apply.

Naturally, this is what I meant. Lost line (+lost buddy) and just lost buddy situations are different. The reel marking is no use if I am on the line to start with.

I might be willing to carry extra back up lights for leaving in emergency but I am not gonna start carrying extra spools and reels to dump as markers to pull this into a joke

 

[piikki]

I slip this question here (sorry for the hi jack) but would I be committing another capital crime in some people's mind if I was passing those double arrows at the same site (P1/Olsen), and to reinforce my own exit my team would drop arrows on the P1 side?
(Keep in mind again, I am not cookie-trained, so I am not dropping no cookie...yet).