Do we need instructors?

[Paladin]

I have never taken a class with a "certified" instructor. My training was 100% mentor supplied. My only personal relationship with an "official" instructor has been when I did checkout dives to get first my Basic Scuba and then my Open Water certifications. If it had not been necessary to possess a c-card to buy air, I probably wouldn't have bothered with either.

It seems to me that, in this thread, the most ardent proponents of the necessity of certified instructors have been, for the most part, instructors. It is only natural that they would defend their profession. If mentor-taught SCUBA should, once again, become prevalent, they (and the dive shops for which they work) would lose their elite positions in the dive community, as well as a substantial portion of their incomes. But you cannot blame them. Besides, they have been indoctrinated by the industry which spawned them.

In a way, diver certification is a form of extortion. You don't pay for a SCUBA class to get an approved c-card, you don't get air. It makes me wonder how many experienced, uncertified divers there are out there who refused to be blackmailed and simply bought their own compressors.

Conceivably, a person could teach himself to snorkel to gain basic water skills, indulge in a course of self study of diving physics and safety from the wealth of SCUBA books and publications on the market, buy a compressor and gear online and teach himself to dive in careful increments until gaining a reasonable level of competency. In fact, I would hazard a guess that more than a few have done just that. Basic SCUBA using basic equipment is not rocket science, after all.

Now, I have no axe to grind with SCUBA instructors. A couple of my closest friends are instructors. And very good ones, too. Instructors have their place. But to answer the OP's questions:

No, I do not think professional instructors are absolutely necessary and, yes, I would serve as a mentor in introducing others to the sport. As a point of fact, I have done so a few times in the past.

Here in WV, most people learn to drive while being taught in the mentor style. No professional instructor required. Further, once you get a driver's license, you do not have to get any additional license to drive vehicles other than the one you learned in. You can learn to drive in a VW then, if you have the finances available to you, you can go right out and buy yourself a thirty-five foot, class A motor home and hit the road; no further instruction required.

To get a motorcycle license, all one has to do is pass a simple written test, buy a motorcycle, teach himself to ride, then pass a road test. No professional instructor required. Some states do not even require the use of a helmet.

Anyone 18 or older can walk into a gun shop and buy a high powered rifle or shotgun, then go out to teach himself how to shoot or have a friend to help him learn. The age is 21 for a handgun, but the rest still applies. No professional instructor required.

If these potentially hazardous activities, during the course of which other people and not just the participants are at potential risk, do not require professional instruction to accomplish, then why should SCUBA diving be singled out as to forcing the requirement of needing a professional instructor?

It has been noted that the dive industry formed its own regulatory agencies to avoid having the government step in to regulate it. I can buy that, but not for the reasons that have been stated. By regulating the industry themselves, the agencies and LDS can maintain a tighter grip on the economics of SCUBA. They knew that if they could limit the prospective diver's options as to the purchase of gear and air, they could control the price of these things and insure their own economic survival. The whole instructor/certification schtick is about money. Period.

It has been mentioned that dive shops must enforce the certification rules when selling gear or air to protect themselves from lawsuits. That "logic" doesn't fly. If an unlicensed driver buys a car (perfectly legal) and then goes out and has an accident, the dealer is not held responsible. If that driver stopped on the way from the dealer to buy a tank of gas before the accident, the gas station is not held responsible. The responsibility rests solely upon the shoulders of the driver. Neither the car dealer nor the gas station are in business to be anyone's babysitter. They are in business to sell (and service) automobiles or the gas and oil that goes into them. There is no requirement that the buyer show a valid driver's license to buy either the car or the gas to run it.

I may be wrong, but I would surmise that, if the government had become involved in the SCUBA regulatory process, the process would have become no more complicated than that of obtaining a driver's license. Pass a written test for a "learner's permit," learn to dive from an experienced diver, take a practical diving test, get a license.

But to be perfectly honest, I really don't see the government even wanting to get involved. Skiing is a potentially dangerous sport, yet the government's involvement is limited to insuring that the manufacturers of the equipment produce safe, reliable equipment.

Trail riding four wheelers and motorcycles on forest trails is a potentially dangerous sport, but other than regulating the manufacture of the machines, the government stays clear.

Water skiing is potentially dangerous, but other than regulating the manufacture of the equipment and the registration of the boat, the government is mostly hands off.

Part 103 of the Federal Aviation Administration's FAR's allows anyone, of any age, to fly a single seat, ultralight aircraft without either the pilot or the aircraft being licensed.

I could continue citing virtually endless examples, but i think you get the picture. Things would, more than likely, be much simpler if the government had gotten involved. By regulating itself, the dive industry has insured itself a higher profit margin than, perhaps, it might have had if the government had become involved. I am, usually, not a proponent of government involvement in things but, in this case, if the dive industry truly needs some sort of regulation (which I doubt), then I think I would prefer the "public option." After all, the government would not be in it for profit.

All of the above is, of course, my own personal opinion; not intended to flame or offend anyone. I just have a few issues with the dive industry and the agencies that control it.

Okay. Off the soap box.

 

[DCBC]

No, in the early 60s most were academics and recreation people, the large influx of military came with the PADI send-a-CHECK-in-for-an-instructor-card policy.

In Canada, many academics were also involved with NAUI, but military personnel were the primary force in the 60's. This changed in the 70's when the Canadian military became formally involved with ACUC to the extent that you had to be ACUC Instructor to teach on any Canadian base. Nothing else would do.

"The PADI send-a-CHECK-in-for-an-instructor-card policy" was the norm in the 70's; which is how I was certified as a PADI Instructor in 1973. You get what you pay for...

From clubs to LDSs ... not sure about that.

Again, I can't suggest that is how it was world-wide. I can attest through personal involvement that that's how it was in Canada.

ITCs grew smaller and became much easier to slide through as it is harder to flunk your only student than it is say: five out of fourty candidates.

I agree. On my NAUI Instructor's evaluation, 3 passed out of 36 candidates with 2 additional conditionals.

Hopefully honesty will rear its head and the industry will stop pretending that divers are ready to operate independently.

Exactly. Greed will have to take a backseat to safety.

 

[leapfrog]

You have all written very eloquent and intelligent comments about the need for scuba instructors or rather the fact that we are not needed. I think Scubaboard has become a free for all video game where anybody can just log in, propound any opinion they like, without having to sustain it or without having the knowledge behind those opinions.
The favorite games on Scubaboard are:
1. PADI Bashing.
2. Insult the full time diving instructor.
3. Assume that anybody who is involved in scuba diving on a relatively full time basis is an illiterate, uneducated hobo without any other experience.
4. Pretend to be a world class diver and international dive guru when the writer has only logged about 40 dives.
So let me answer the question again, “Are instructors necessary?”

Do we need instructors?(Actually, this thread could be called...Would you teach someone to dive...it's not a slam on instructors).If not for the litigious nature of our (US) society would we really "need" instructors?I'm not saying that we wouldn't but I'm just posing the question. In several other sports most training if not all in some cases is done by mentoring.We have mentoring in scuba in additional to traditional instructors/courses.If you didn't have to worry about the legal aspects of teaching someone else to scuba dive would you do it? (assume either calm warm water nearby or access to a pool.Would you do it for strangers, close friends, family members?Assume that there were no legal issues and that getting air would be no problem without "a card".There would be no time pressure and you could be a through as you wanted...

This is a perfectly reasonable, intelligent, moderate and well thought out OP which has brought about a number of very interesting opinions.

Since my last post on the thread here are some of the latest gems:

The big problem I see is that you wear your "instructor hat" to prominently and have forgotten that on this board you are just a diver like everyone else. Step off your self important soapbox already. I thought I was being fairly representative of both sides of the fence but we know what that gets you when debating with someone of a polarized viewpoint. You typed a bunch of trite, short retorts to my points that don't really make any sense at all but I guess... just because you type something... covers all the bases and is the perfect answer to any argument.

So on a thread discussing “Are Instructors necessary” I am attacked for making my comments as an instructor. Because I happen to have bothered to go out and get my instructor certification and I take my work seriously, I am on a self important soapbox. If I maintain an opinion contrary to the majority, I’m polarized. If I have the ability to dissect the argument of someone whose opinion in this particular instance I don’t agree with I have the perfect answer to any argument.

The same person then says in their next post

Do we need instructors? SCUBA has a well documented history of people learning to dive competently without formalized instruction. This does not devalue the role of professional instruction nor their contribution to the sport but merely answers the question as asked. "Is value added by professional instruction" or "Is diving safer with professional instruction" are different questions.

but doesn’t actually reach a cut and dried conclusion because the answer may conflict with their previous post.

You then go on to say:

Liability issues aside, would you teach someone else how to dive?
This question is subjective IMO and will vary from person to person. I really don't know what my answer is to that one. I do know that I have no interest in becoming a professional scuba instructor and prefer to keep it an activity I enjoy. I have turned other pastimes into professions and as a result experienced burnout and a diminished desire to pursue those pastimes as a result.

Here is a clear argument in favor of professional instruction versus mentoring. When you turn your pastime into a profession you can suffer burnout. Professionals don’t suffer burnout. If they do, it never was their profession, it was their dream and when they became faced with the realities of the job they threw in the towel. A professional scuba instructor doesn’t say I don’t feel like it today. Unless we are really sick (subject for another thread?) we go and we do our job. We do that job because it’s the one we have, because people have limited time and they want a standard syllabus that prepares them for diving. The merits and demerits of whether that syllabus is adequate or not are beyond the scope of this particular thread and are being ever discussed on others almost permanently).

Someone for whom I have great respect then goes on to say:

Qualified does not equal instructor does not equal professional ... that's at the crux of the issue.

…………..

…professional standards are so low. I'd place most of the blame for this on the "Professional" Development Instructor mills and the one to two candidate, on demand, ITCs that are all the rage today. In my experience, and that is limited, those you'd refer to as Professional certified diving instructors are, both in terms of median value and who's at the top of the heap, almost invariably, inferior to the Amateur certified diving instructors, but that's a whole separate thread.

Yes, it is a separate thread so why are you inserting here? (I happen to agree with what you are saying, but it’s an argument for improving instructor qualification and education, not to support the eradication of instructors).

Please do not think that I am deriding you personally, I always try to leave an out in my statement for the really good but slightly misguided.

I know you are not deriding me personally. I admit to having been slightly on edge when there is a mob (I’m not referring to you) making a case for having me blown out of the water to be replaced with amigos who do some diving.

All any of us can do is relate our experiences. I'm happy to grant you that mine are two standard deviations out, in almost all ways. But I have had the chance to watch what has happened to the more mainstream community and it leaves me concerned. I will grant you that I am making this case, currently, more out of dismay as to what has become of a credential that I used to respect and we should all be concerned that the case is, in fact, so easy to make.

I perfectly understand this and agree with it! Again, it is a case for demanding better instructors and instructional systems, not for eliminating us.

All that I'm saying it that blanket dismissal of good mentors in favor of certified sometimes idiots is not always a good policy. Got to take it case by case, person by person.

We agree. Sweeping generalizations are all too rife on the Board. Just for the record, not all mentors are GOOD and not all certified instructors are IDIOTS. It definitely needs to be taken on a person by person basis.
________________________________________

... and humble or proud neither you nor I would send anyone we cared about to them for instruction ... right?

Right.

I pay a lot more for a fencing coach, or an Aikido sensei, or a riding instructor or a pistol instructor or a ski instructor. What do you think?

I’m hurting financially more than I have in my whole life. So logically, I defend LESS INSTRUCTORS, BETTER INSTRUCTION, ONGOING EDUCATION AND TRAINING, MARKETING MORE THOROUGH, REALISTIC, SAFE AND ENJOYABLE COURSES TO THE PUBLIC, CLOSING DOWN CHARTERS AND LDS THAT ARE UNSAFE, HIGHER QUALITY CONTROL. My example on your take Thal is that it costs about $2000 to do a USPA AFF skydiving course. Something, somewhere is very wrong.

Not really, the "Professional" diving instructor is a johnny-come-lately on the scene that has striven to push the amateur instructor and the mentor out of the picture.

I think all PROs strive to push amateurs and mentors out of the picture. Kind of goes with the terrain. First time I’ve ever been referred to as a Johnny Come Lately!

While I agree that in most cases it's probably better for a diver to take a Rescue course rather than rely on a mentor there is no reason that it has to be this way. Most mentors probably aren't going to spend the time organizing a rescue scenario but in a club setting of course they may.

You also have to be an EFR or similar instructor to do a Rescue Course and the student has to get an EFR rating or similar to complete the course.

The OP says:

OW could certainly be taught by mentoring but the main point isn't that mentoring would be better across the board than the current system as in make all instruction mentoring based. It's that with specific people that you know something about (friends, family, etc) mentoring in many cases would be more through than today’s classes.

Again, this is an argument for better instructors, classes and courses, not for doing away with them.

So, an instructor in general may be better prepared for the full range of students coming in off the street including ones not really suited for diving.

Thank you, that is one of key points supporting my argument that Instructors ARE necessary.

I don't see how anyone can argue that an experienced diver taking their time instructing someone they know something about can't do a better job than a professional who in general these days only has anywhere from 2 weeks to one weekend to teach a class.

With all due respect this simply isn’t true. I can take six months or even a year to teach someone. I don’t put the time frame on the class, the student does. So if a student has more time they would probably (case by case would have to be studied) still be better serviced by me than a non professional mentor. I think you are referring to the time restrictions frequent at LDS. That’s another thread 

Some instructors are very experienced because they were very experienced before they became instructors but there is nothing about the process of becoming a professional in diving that involves diving. It's a professional in the sense of educating if anything.

Agreed.

You say that there are too many people who aren't qualified intruding into the ranks of professional people. There are also too many professional people who aren't qualified insisting that it would be too dangerous to allow a mentor to teach someone how to dive.

I would say that’s a very spurious argument and you would have to support it.

I know quite a few instructors and have met/observed many more. I also know and have dived with many, many experienced divers. In general the experienced divers I know across the board have more diving skills, "book" knowledge, and dive experience than the majority of the instructors I know. There are a few exceptions of course. I will also say that I don't personally know of any "bad" instructors either...just not terribly experienced or knowledgeable in some cases.

I think you are mixing and matching here. As I posted previously you don’t have to be God’s gift to scuba diving many to be a decent instructor. Most of those superdivers you mention (I know literally hundreds of them) are lousy instructors for one reason or another (impatience, intolerance, lack of humility, etc). Occasionally there is a superdiver who’s also a good instructor. You’re unlikely to find him/her teaching OWD.

It seems to me that, in this thread, the most ardent proponents of the necessity of certified instructors have been, for the most part, instructors.

Logical or do you expect us to propose that we should be liquidated?

It is only natural that they would defend their profession.

Every other profession does it, why wouldn’t we?

If mentor-taught SCUBA should, once again, become prevalent, they (and the dive shops for which they work) would lose their elite positions in the dive community

you obviously are not an instructor otherwise you wouldn’t refer to us as having an “elite position”. It’s a laughable non sequitor

, as well as a substantial portion of their incomes.

In my case, all of a very small one.

But you cannot blame them. Besides, they have been indoctrinated by the industry which spawned them.

John 11:35 Indoctrinated by the industry that spawned me? That’s pretty sick.

In a way, diver certification is a form of extortion.

That’s really far out! You pay for training. If you successfully complete that training you get the relevant certification. If you don’t successfully undertake the course, you don’t get certified. Extortion?

You don't pay for a SCUBA class to get an approved c-card, you don't get air.

Has it ever occurred to you that the LDS has no way of knowing if you know anything at all about diving unless they see a card?

It makes me wonder how many experienced, uncertified divers there are out there who refused to be blackmailed and simply bought their own compressors.

There is nothing stopping anyone from doing this. But to call certification “blackmail” is outrageous and libelous.

Now, I have no axe to grind with SCUBA instructors.

I don’t believe you.

A couple of my closest friends are instructors.

I don’t believe this either.

Instructors have their place.

You don’t say…

The whole instructor/certification schtick is about money. Period.

How cynical and how sad. But you say you have no axe to grind and some of your closest friends are instructors….

By regulating itself, the dive industry has insured itself a higher profit margin than, perhaps, it might have had if the government had become involved. ….After all, the government would not be in it for profit.

You know very little about the dive industry (profits? Margins? Where?) and even less about government which is the biggest money making scam known to man. It takes money from everybody and everything to then go and use it in a frequently irresponsible way while paying literally hundreds of thousands of totally functionless bureaucratic jobs while furthering the egos of government workers and politicians alike.

All of the above is, of course, my own personal opinion; not intended to flame or offend anyone.

No offense taken

I just have a few issues with the dive industry and the agencies that control it.

Aren’t you contradicting yourself once again?

 

[I Dive]

So, competence needs to be implied whether mentor or instructor.

I absolutely agree. Competence needs to be measured by more than just a catch phrase. Trust me, I don't believe all Instructors are awesome and know what they are doing. I don't think my OW instructor could have done a worse job if he intentionally set out to perform the worst OW course in history. But, on the flip side, I also don't think a person should be teaching just because they are an "experienced diver". Heck, I don't even believe a person should necessarily be teaching even if they are an incredilbly knowledgable and accomplished diver. They can know everything there is to know about diving and not have the slightest clue how to pass on that knowledge to another person. They may have long forgotten what it's like to be a newbie, no little to nothing and be nervous, uncomfortable, etc... You can think what you want about Instructors. I'd hate to see the day that a person would learn how to dive by asking the guy in Walmart who just bought a snorkel if he could be their SCUBA mentor...

 

[Web Monkey]

instructors are underpaid or have I misunderstood you? You're assuming that we are all capable of doing something else than instructing and that we instruct only for fun... what's wrong with being a professional scuba instructor?

Nothing's "wrong" although if you figure costs (equipment/vehicle/insurance/air/etc.), time, and actual profits, I'm pretty sure that standing by an automatic door saying "Welcome to Wal-mart" is more profitable than teaching OW classes.

Terry

 

[leapfrog]

Nothing's "wrong" although if you figure costs (equipment/vehicle/insurance/air/etc.), time, and actual profits, I'm pretty sure that standing by an automatic door saying "Welcome to Wal-mart" is more profitable than teaching OW classes.Terry

Thanks, Terry. You made me laugh, which I think is something we all need, i.e. not to lose our sense of humor.

On a slightly more serious note, if you know anybody at Wal-mart who can get me that job, let me know

 

[Garth]

My only comment to Paladin954 is...

I would watch out comparing motorcycle training to scuba diving. I think it's crazy that people can pass a written test and learn how to ride a motorcycle.
why you ask..

I work in a Trauma Center, and motorcycle crashes (including moped crashes usually drunks) are common and never end well. If that were the case for scuba diving .. well you get the point.

 

[rligon]

Experience counts! If we are talking about someone that went through a quickie "be a scuba instructor" class then that is an issue. If we are dealing we folks who went through the entire DM-AOWI-OWI... path, then I will take them over a casual mentor any day of the week. I agree there are some folks out there that could probally do great with just a mentor teaching them. But the rest of us aren't that way. Scuba instruction presents different instructor challanges from each student. A professional who has been down the training path and gone through the layers of being an assistant first has seen a lot of these and learned from more experienced instructors what works and what doesn't in helping a student through their individual issues. That makes all the difference in the world for the student!

The other problem with mentoring: how does a newbie find one? When my family got into this, we knew a grand total of one diver who doesn't have time to do it any more. By going through the shop and the instructor system, we ended up with an instructor team lead by a PADI CD who has taught thousands of students well, backed up by MSDTs, OWIs, and lots of DMs, all of whom were gaining experience at the same time they were teaching. So thanks mentors, but I'll stick with the pros for initial instruction.

 

[DaleC]

Leapfrog,

The problem that I see with you in this thread is that you are so set on your position you don't really read other peoples posts. Who has been "attacking" you? You see someone voicing something that sounds contrary and you respond ina knee jerk reaction. Except for post 153 (where I admit I grew tired of you dismissing, instead of responding) I don't think I insulted or put down instructors or instructing as a whole in any way.. certainly not you personally. I may have commented on some instructors I Have known but balanced my comments asserting that mentors could act the same way. What more would you have; a board comprised of voices exactly like yours?

You however (post 163) attempt to insult and dismiss anyone who holds a contrary opinion to yours. How can anyone engage in a discussion with you if they are denigrated for holding a contrary opinion. That's not a conversation.
The problem with defending instructors or instructing, as a whole, is that you have to defend everyone; the good, the bad, the ugly. Not an enviable position and certainly not one that I would assume. You are not every instructor so you need not personally take on and defend their faults.
Take a breath... read the posts.

BTW. Your response to burnout is off the mark IMO. Professionals burn out all the time. Cops, EMT's, Military personnel, ER doctors, workers in any high stress or isolated job setting, workers that take on too much work load either voluntarily or by the nature of their position. To say none of those who burn out were ever professional either shows ignorance or disrespect of the phenomenon. Denial of the potential for burnout is the best way to ensure it. You suffer a superman complex if you think you are immune to its effects or "smart" enough to avoid them.

 

[I Dive]

The other problem with mentoring: how does a newbie find one?

Like I said earlier, you head to Walmart, hang out in the sporting goods aisle, and wait for someone to buy a snorkel! That person can be your mentor!

Obviously there are things that can be set up to refer people to mentors. But, by the time all of that is established, you basically have yourself a certifying agency, without the certifications... I've heard and read a little on BSAC, which apparently is a SCUBA club in Britain that provides mentors to show people how to do dive. What I've read on Scuba Board seems pretty good, but to be perfectly honest-if BSAC was as awesome as some on SB make it out to be, I wouldn't know Brits who are PADI certified... And, I'm also pretty sure that the BSAC model would be the dominant standard industry wide, as opposed to the training models offered by the evil agencies...

One thing I've learned in life is that vehemently disagreeing with something and declaring that you have a better idea doesn't change anything. About all it accomplishes is turning someone into an Armchair Quarterback. My advice to all of the people who have such serious disagreements, contempt for, or whatever for the current SCUBA Instructional models is to stop spending so much time on SB telling all of us your awesome ideas and instead use that time to IMPLEMENT your awesome ideas. Actions speak louder than words. People like Thal have a ton of credibility to me. He doesn't think much at all of any of the training offered by the agencies. But, rather than just blurt out how much they suck, he's actually out there teaching people how to dive in an entirely different model, one he is comfortable with. Personally, I'd like to see him take more initiative and start up his own agency in his own image to expand his Instructional model, but that's his decision, not mine. On the other hand, people who declare that they know better than any of the agencies how to train a person to dive, but do absolutely nothing to prove that, do not have much credibility with me. The people in the middle, who have some disagreements with the way things are but overall feel that they work even though there is room for improvement (in my mind, EVERYTHING has room for improvement), to me are perfectly reasonable people. There is nothing wrong with some honest disagreement, but when it reaches the point where you feel the existing way of doing things is totally broken and you have a better way of doing it, stop telling us and start showing us...