Zero to hero - top schools?

[Thalassamania]

There are so many things you post that are flat out wrong but I will just pick one from that Grinchie post! This part is just plain ridiculously wrong!

How many IDC's have you ever heard of that did not require a full set of owned gear for the class? Ocean Divers required a full set of gear for each candidate when I went there, starting with AOW; can't imagine that's changed. I showed up with said full kit and it's no longer even mentioned in my profile. I'm not even going to try and list all the spare and retired gear in between the first kit and the current kits, nor any of my Nikonus/Ikelite/Inon gear (does Olympus count?). How much gear does your average student purchase? My next purchase will be 3 Apollo Scooters. I bet Ed knows plenty of Instructor Factory graduates with similar gear history to me. How much gear does your average student purchase again?

Either I was not clear enough or you're not keeping up with the conversation, or you're letting your wishes make the conversation rather than paying attention, I was referring there to ENTRY LEVEL STUDENTS!

 

[Walter]

To clarify, it is my opinion that a top school wouldn't have a zero to hero program. I believe this because zero to hero programs are geared toward certifying instructors in the shortest possible time. Becoming a good instructor requires some elements that can be given in such a program and some that cannot.

Those elements that can be given in such a program are mostly academic and teaching methods. Skills can be honed. Depending on the quality of classes being taught, the elements that can be presented in these programs may or may not be present.

What cannot be accomplished in these programs is real life diving experience outside of a class environment. This real life experience in several different environments making different types of dives is essential to developing good instructors.

A top school will be aware that real life experience is essential and would not offer such a program.

Again, this is my opinion.

 

[OceanEd]

Thal:

I guess we have reached an impass when you say that I have false assumptions. The things I am telling you are not things I assume, but things I have been living since 1972 when I first became a NAUI instructor. In about 1977 I became a Course Director for both NAUI and PADI. I have worked training instructors ever since as well as having spent 15 years as PADI's International Regional Manager and in that time I set up 28 countries from scratch for PADI, opened 4 of their International Offices, and designed and built their International Instructor College in Cannes, France where I was it's director for the first 3 years. I think this experience gives me a wee bit of background to feel that I have seen and done enough over the years to be able to give an opinion that is more than just a false assumption.

Then again, there are always some people that are going to refuse to really listen and think about what you are saying. Why are you so ANTI PADI? Do you feel the same about all the diving organizations or just PADI? I know the guys running most of them today. The guy who is now the head of NAUI, Jed Livingstone, was someone I trained as an Open Water Diver many, many years ago. All these guys are genuinely trying to make the diving organizations the best that they can possibly be. I for one think they have done a great job. Sorry if you disagree.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Thal, you are correct. Since the topic of this thread is basically concerning the training of basic recreational diving instructors, I did need you to type more clearly to understand that you were comparing your 100 hour SH University Research Diving students with every one else's basic recreational open water diving students.

To me that's also kind of like how you compared multi billion dollar competitive sports/entertainment industries with the recreational dive hobby world.

That type of miscommunication is one reason I questioned your participation in a thread on the training of basic recreational dive instructors, that and the fact that you really have no involvement with today's basic recreational dive training.

From the way you type I get the feeling you are looking forward to the collapse of most of todays basic recreational diving industry, even though many of your neighbors who will see their lifelong dreams and work destroyed are not really the used car salesman types you seem to believe every one in today's basic recreational diving industry is. But at least then you will be proven right, no matter how many people suffer.

I truly thought you thought your average student bought more gear than Joe Angelo's average student, or Joe Dituri's average student, or Bill Rennaker's average student. I truly don't know but it's possible your students go on to buy doubles, scooters, rebreathers, housings, etc., and then they could be similar in gear purchase to instructor trainers students or cave instructor's students, but even so I saw you as standing on the Empire State building pounding your chest at all the insects on the streets far below.

One of my most cherished moments here on SB was in a thread where I chided you for using kid gloves on me and you responded that you didn't want to offend me because you respected my input or opinion or some such. Well if you really do respect my opinion then think about the fact that as one of the only close to true zero to hero graduates that does not hide that fact here on SB, I get PM's from quite a few others who just don't post in these threads and hide the facts around their instructor cert, because of the 800 pound gorillas on the sky scrapers. I'm betting there are many others.

Since I have only recently drifted out of the Hawaii O'hana and Photo forums I have often wondered why there is no REAL presence here from the agency the vast majority of basic recreational divers get introduced to diving by, but the recent activity in this thread and reading between the lines in the bashing thread has certainly ended that wondering. I for one hope we do not lose ANY relevant source of enlightenment and welcome OceanEd to continued gainful discussion.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, you are correct. Since the topic of this thread is basically concerning the training of basic recreational diving instructors, I did need you to type more clearly to understand that you were comparing your 100 hour SH University Research Diving students with every one else's basic recreational open water diving students.

To me that's also kind of like how you compared multi billion dollar competitive sports/entertainment industries with the recreational dive hobby world.

That only goes to show how unfamiliar you are with the students that participate in the 100 hour programs as well as with the history of diving instruction and the historic development and changes in recreational diving instruction.

That type of miscommunication is one reason I questioned your participation in a thread on the training of basic recreational dive instructors, that and the fact that you really have no involvement with today's basic recreational dive training.

Question all that you want, it doesn't change the fact that the standards that one of the major agencies operates under, from skin diver up through instructor, stand virtually unchanged from the 1980s when, under contract to them, I wrote those them. I think just that is sufficient credential to permit in the door on this conversation.

From the way you type I get the feeling you are looking forward to the collapse of most of todays basic recreational diving industry, even though many of your neighbors who will see their lifelong dreams and work destroyed are not really the used car salesman types you seem to believe every one in today's basic recreational diving industry is. But at least then you will be proven right, no matter how many people suffer.

I don't really think that I have that kind of power. I do think that a major realignment is coming, and I expect that it will favor the long term independent instructor, rather than the dive shop, and yes ... I'd welcome that change as the best thing FOR THE WOULD-BE-DIVER.

I truly thought you thought your average student bought more gear than Joe Angelo's average student, or Joe Dituri's average student, or Bill Rennaker's average student. I truly don't know but it's possible your students go on to buy doubles, scooters, rebreathers, housings, etc., and then they could be similar in gear purchase to instructor trainers students or cave instructor's students, but even so I saw you as standing on the Empire State building pounding your chest at all the insects on the streets far below.

You have a vivid imagination.

One of my most cherished moments here on SB was in a thread where I chided you for using kid gloves on me and you responded that you didn't want to offend me because you respected my input or opinion or some such. Well if you really do respect my opinion then think about the fact that as one of the only close to true zero to hero graduates that does not hide that fact here on SB, I get PM's from quite a few others who just don't post in these threads and hide the facts around their instructor cert, because of the 800 pound gorillas on the sky scrapers. I'm betting there are many others.

People can survive and prosper and grow in spite of many things, but for you to pretend that you were a zero-to-hero creation (you started diving at what? Age 6 or 7? As did I) is a bit on the specious side. I was teaching diving long before I ever attended an ITC and (for me) the major function of the ITC was to expand my network and to gain a new and very capable mentor. So I went from someone who's only previous credential was a NAUI Basic Diver card (with no open water dives) to an Instructor in the course of two weeks (though I'd been diving for almost twenty years at stage) ... is that zero-to-hero too?

Since I have only recently drifted out of the Hawaii O'hana and Photo forums I have often wondered why there is no REAL presence here from the agency the vast majority of basic recreational divers get introduced to diving by, but the recent activity in this thread and reading between the lines in the bashing thread has certainly ended that wondering. I for one hope we do not lose ANY relevant source of enlightenment and welcome OceanEd to continued gainful discussion.

PADI's corporate philosophy, as explained to me by a past CEO, is never to fight the battle, even if it is the good fight, but rather to be sure to take the money. I too welcome OceanEd to SB, he will (IMHO) raise the level of the conversation no end.

 

[OceanEd]

Halemano:

Thanks for the kind words. I have only been posting on the board for a couple of weeks. I am also completely amazed that PADI does not have a presence here like the other organizations seem to have. Even though I worked for PADI as their International Regional Manager for over 15 years I don't feel it is my place to be their representative here.

I can, however, give my persepctive from the standpoint of someone who have been totally immersed in the diver training world since 1972 when I first became a NAUI Instructor.

Thal and I are having some very interesting debates on 3 or 4 different threads in different sections on on the board. It's great. In fact, he has just proposed that we set up a completely separate thread that is specifically for us to debate the things we are discussing. I think he is in the process of setting that up right now. If nothing else, it should be very interesting. Hope you can join us.

 

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Gentleman, as a reminder this thread is in the New Divers section. As experienced professionals I know that many of you are passionate in your beliefs, but the "tone" in some youe responses is not really suitable for the intended audience. Please adjust accordingly.

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[Thalassamania]

That's why we are moving: PADI: Savior of diving, spawn of hell of ???

 

[MrJDoran]

I began diving in August 2010. OW, AOW, EFR, Rescue, Nitrox, Deep spec, Wreck spec, Videography. 231 dives and 6 trigger attacks later my DM was completed. I bought myself a Pro QD and some sweet regs too. Headed to Maui this week hoping for some good vis. I had totally forgot about this forum until searching some old emails. Its funny how time flies..

 

[scubadiveilat]

If your question is in reference to $8000 for 6 months. It's a little on the up side. As to where to do the course and with whom. Is a very difficult question. Everyone is different in where they're interested in conducting there course or to live meanwhile. Location, Location, Location is a priceless word.

To become an instructor from zero to hero takes around six months which includes the experience required as well. Min dives required, dealing with all sort of issues, presenting courses, different oceans experience, boat experience, terminology, and the theories and exams. There is a lot to learn. It's an intense process but it's a great lifestyle for the ocean lover.

1. Think of where you want to be?
2. Are you going to enjoy being there at least 6 months?
3. What is your budget? There are many options in getting certified with the option of a less expensive tuition.
4. Think of where you want to work after wards? Are you going to need further experience. For instance; getting the course done in Thailand Meanwhile your interested in work in Alaska! Is not going to work for you. They are two different worlds. With special expertise in addition that's required.

Thus in short plan, do research yourself, make some calls, contact some people, prepare, plan and act.

Welcome to the fascinating world of diving!!! Enjoy every minute and anything your interested in asking please do so.

Have fun!!!