What type of training...

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I apologize if I offended you. I think we are having a misunderstanding because I in no way intended to insult you.

Re-reading your post, I can see where I was in error. That'll teach me to multi-task while washing gear.

We can either work it out in PM, let it go, or pull the related posts.

No need ... reading further, particularly Chantelle's last post, I decided that we're miscommunicating primarily because of a difference in how we interpret certain words. Thanks for the apology, but perhaps I simply mistook what you were saying. Consider it history.

To me, "benign" doesn't imply "complacent". For example, our local training site ... Cove 2 ... is a very benign dive site. It's not particularly challenging ... and yet someone dies there almost every year. TSandM's worst diving injury happened there. The only time a student of mine got hurt, that's where it happened. None of that was due to the conditions of the site, however ... nor do I believe most had anything to do with complacency.

I just don't equate those two terms to be necessarily related to each other. And I don't think most folks who refer to a dive as "benign" mean it in the way that you and Chantelle are implying.

I think we agree that no matter how "easy" the dive is, anytime you stick your head underwater you gotta take what you're doing seriously. Otherwise, you're just asking for trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I get your drift ... the thinking that leads to complacency has no place in diving.

But yeah, I was referring to the level of stress that comes from overthinking a dive. It leads to making small problems seem bigger and more complex than they really are. Lot of times it just leads to people freaking out over something they could've easily resolved.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
agreed. there's a difference between being smug and recognizing a certain dive for what it is and planning appropriately.
sometimes it IS just a 20' reef dive
 
agreed. there's a difference between being smug and recognizing a certain dive for what it is and planning appropriately.
sometimes it IS just a 20' reef dive

Which is exactly where I've discovered my gas was turned off more than once, where divers who haven't practiced an emergency ascent since training and who would be close to one another at 200 feet dive too far apart to be of any immediate help, and where technical divers have war stories about something really stupid they did through carelessness and joke that it would have been really embarrassing to have been found dead there.

To say, "We are making a 20 foot reef dive and it is what it is," still gives us a sort of mental respect. When we say, "It's just a 20 foot reef dive," we tend to find ourselves without our gas turned on. :wink:
 
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Sorry I found this thread so late. A lot of it touches on my vocation.

I'm not sure exactly how to do it but the best approach - which I assume is what the current method is attempting - is one that allows the the instructor to determine where/when/why/how the STUDENT will FAIL. It's cliche, but we learn by our mistakes, not our successes.

It may be a cliché, but educational research does not support it. Research shows overwhelmingly that learning is most effective when the student is skillfully led through a series of true successes to reach a high standard of accomplishment. Success breeds success. Failure breeds failure.

A student who successfully overcomes one true challenge after another en route to a high standard has a faster skill development than a student who has a series of failures. That student will also become positively motivated, while the student who has consistently failed will eventually become unmotivated and ready to quit at the first opportunity.

The cause for this seems to go beyond our human psyche. When rats are exposed to a series of problems for which they are able to find successful solutions, they will struggle to the end to find a solution to a life/death scenario. Rats who were prepared with a series of no-win problems prior to the same scenario give up almost immediately and accept death.

I don't think the issue is whether a single failure or multiple failures is training is better. The issue is how many failures become too many. All agencies have multiple failure scenarios written into the standards

Just as a reminder to those who do not recall the context of the quoted post, the poster is using the word failure in a different sense from the quote above. He is referring to the failures introduced by the instructor as a problem to solve in a training scenario. I believe he is perfectly correct here.

Although this article is on a different educational topic, part of it is germane. Well designed instruction plans with the end in mind. What do I want the student to learn, and what is the best path to get the student there? You begin with a challenge the student can handle and then step by step add complexity. If each step is not significantly more challenging than the preceding one, the student does not learn enough and becomes bored. If a step requires too great a leap, the student will fail and be frustrated.

Here is a description of an actual training process I witnessed. The goal was to learn bottle passing.

Step 1: The students were at the OW site in which they are being evaluated for the skill requirements for a certification level. There was a brief (1-2 minute explanation) of the process and purpose. Students were told that on the ensuing dive they would attempt to complete the bottle passing requirement for the course while doing simulated decompression stops.

Step 2: Students descended to the line carrying AL 80 stage bottles. The beginning of the ascent was where the ascent line began, inches above a very fine silt bottom. The line ascended right next to a fine silt wall, and students had been told emphatically that they were not to raise silt. As they reached the bottom, the instructor introduced a failure by putting one of the divers OOA on back gas, so they went to the ascent line doing an air share. They began to do the switch to their AL 80 deco bottles, and, as expected, the instructor made one of them fail so that they had to pass a bottle.

The first pass was clumsy in just getting the bottle to the diver, who struggled to maintain perfect buoyancy as he accepted the full AL 80- inches above the silt. That diver then struggled to clip the bottom bolt snap to the hip D-ring, given that this was the first time he had ever done it, he was sharing air, and he had the bulk of 2 AL 80s under his arm. He brushed the bank several times in this struggle. He finally clipped the snap bolt to the loop of the snap bolt for the inner bottle rather than the D-ring. Eventually the two made successful but clumsy passes throughout the ascent.

Step 3: On the surface, the instructor explained to them how the bottle should have been passed.

Step 4: In film study that evening, the camera and instructor focus first on the puffs of silt being raised. The camera critically zooms in and focuses on the clipping to the other bolt snap. The video shows how the diver has lost some trim while securing the bottle. The instructor makes it clear that things have to get better when they do it again, which will not be at least for another month when they have their next OW evaluation. They need to do a lot of practice before that. There is nothing positive to be said about the experience.

The instructor openly believes that students learn through failure, and doing otherwise is "holding their hands."

I believe that the students would have been better served by a full explanation followed by a demonstration followed by practice with smaller AL 40s and without the complication of the silt and the the OOA scenario. Once those steps had been completed successfully, the students could have completed the assessment without a hitch.

Back to the quote above: multiple failures in a scenario is an effective learning tool once the student has mastered the components of those failures individually. When the multiple failures become too many for the student to handle or when they interfere with the learning of a new skill (as in my example), they are counterproductive.


In my experience, the most dangerous failure is what I call "The Smug Alert" failure named after the South Park episode that inspired it. It happens when divers start to feel really good about their training and experience and become lost in a cloud of smug that reduces visualization and the ability to respect all dives, no matter how benign, as "real" and potentially life-threatening.

This is the result of what I call false success. False success occurs when you give the student too little challenge to master and/or praise them unduly for poor performances without requiring that they achieve true success.
 
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That was a really interesting and well-written post, John.
 
I thought I would address one aspect of another question raised in this thread: are super long and exhausting instructional days beneficial? This response will be completely theoretical and will not address any specific program. It will also only address one aspect of the situation.

At the beginning of the era of the development of state content standards for education, I was directly involved at both the district and Colorado state level. One memorable day our social studies representative to the state standards committee returned from their final approval meeting and told everyone else that they might as well retire now. Because the say is only so long, students will have to spend all of every day in school studying social studies if they are to complete the requirements of the new state standards.

The new Georgia state standards for English require all students, even those with no plans for college, to know more than almost any English teacher I ever met.

This is happening everywhere in the USA. A study by MCREL (Mid Continental Regional Education Laboratory said that a student who truly masters what they are required to master in state education standards will have to stay in school until the age of 27. (Some states have recognized this and begun to rethink those standards.)

About a decade ago the TIMSS study (now Trends in International Math Science Study), the group you know for regularly showing how poorly American students do in comparison to others in the world, first started pointing out that we teach math and science very differently from the way the nations that perform the highest do. At the 8th grade level, for example, students in America study more than 4 times as many math concepts as the highest scoring nation (Singapore). We spend about 2 days per concept; they spend several weeks per concept.

If we were talking about throwing rocks in the water, we would count success by the number of times a stone skips across the surface before reaching the other side, whereas they believe success is measured by how many stones you get to the bottom.

In general, when you try to get students to learn everything, you make it hard for them to learn anything.

One of the hardest things for people to do in evaluating any instructional program is to determine the difference between what a student really needs to master, what would be nice for them to know, and what is really unimportant stuff that is getting in the way. The history buff who argues successfully that every student needs to know the name of Robert E. Lee's horse has made it more difficult for the student to understand the causes of the Civil War and how those causes relate to our world today. People have strong feelings about things that prevent them from admitting that, well, maybe a student really doesn't need to be able know or be able to do that at this performance level.

Even if two programs are spending the same amount of time on the same essential skills, if one of them is adding a lot of other stuff on top of it, that additional learning greatly interferes with a student's ability to learn that which is truly essential. See Interference Theory for more details.
 
I made the conscious decision to act as I would in a real situation. I signaled turn around, but the instructor stopped me and indicated that we were to keep going.

It's stuff like 'how many failures can you take' that throw me for a loop. I can take a lot, but in real life I'd thumb it WAY earlier.

I think my favorite unrealistic failure I was ever given was when I got a left post unfixable failure while I was supposed to be OOA on back gas. Just where was that bubbling gas coming from, anyway, and why should I care?

I think there is a fine line that an instructor has to walk, and it would help to understand the "why" of the situation.

If you get licensed/certified to coach in a sports program that really teaches coaching theory, you learn that a well designed practice activity strikes a balance between two sometimes contradictory goals.
  1. Instruction should be game-like (realistic). If not, you teach and reinforce habits that can be counterproductive.
  2. Maximize repetitions in order to promote muscle memory.
In soccer practice, an 11-v-11 game is the most game-like, but it minimizes repetitions for each player. A passing drill in which two players pass a ball back and forth while facing each other maximizes repetitions but is not remotely game-like and ingrains bad habits. A good compromise is a 3-3 game of keep away. It does not include the game-like goal of getting into position for a shot, but it teaches passing effectively.

A real deco dive without failures is most realistic, but it minimizes repetitions.

A multiple failure scenario can be an effective compromise as long as students understand that it is a compromise. Yes, I would normally turn the dive, but that would defeat the instructional purpose of the exercise. True, an OOA tank is not going to present me with a left post failure I need to worry about, but it afforded me an opportunity to practice a skill I had learned earlier and no harm was done; i.e., I did not have to perform a skill that was teaching me to do something wrong, and it did not prevent me from doing the other failures with which I was about to be presented (and they were legion).
 
I think my favorite unrealistic failure I was ever given was when I got a left post unfixable failure while I was supposed to be OOA on back gas. Just where was that bubbling gas coming from, anyway, and why should I care?

Team of two or team of three?
 
The history buff who argues successfully that every student needs to know the name of Robert E. Lee's horse has made it more difficult for the student to understand the causes of the Civil War and how those causes relate to our world today.

Excellent posts John.

And regarding Lee's horse. Part of difference between a good teacher and a gifted educator is the latter seems able to get students to differentiate between what is essential and what is trivia.
 
Excellent posts John.

And regarding Lee's horse. Part of difference between a good teacher and a gifted educator is the latter seems able to get students to differentiate between what is essential and what is trivia.

I vote we put the question and the answers, "Traveler and Lucy," in TDI exams to illustrate your point. :D
 
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