Are you a Dive Hypocrite?

[Akimbo]

… Should certain diving activities be prohibited?...

I have no interest in debating Darwin and Creationism, but I am a firm believer in Darwin's principals as they apply to diving. At least in the US, we have a Constitutional right to be as ignorant and stupid as we choose. We see proof everyday that prohibition cannot stop it, but Darwin does a pretty good job.

 

[drrich2]

At least in the US, we have a Constitutional right to be as ignorant and stupid as we choose.

You'd think so, but all those seat belt laws say different.

If a person is an adult (18+), of reasonably sound mind (e.g.: not mentally retarded, in a state of active compromising mental illness, drunk), I think the decision and responsibility are theirs.

One exception would be if the safety risks of a given situation were misrepresented badly by vendors of some sort, particularly to newbies. Reasonable full disclosure is worthwhile.

And I recognize the right of dive charters/vendors to choose not to enable people to do stupid things.

Example: Can someone fresh out of OW training with no further experience, cocky and immature, 18 years old on a dare from his new frat. buddies at college (not to diss frat.s; just a convenient example) go solo deep dive (on air, single tank) the wreck of the Oriskany?

Yeah, I suppose. I figure most charters wouldn't accept him. If he can borrow Dad's boat for the weekend and go die, well, people already brought up natural selection, so...

Richard.

 

[TMHeimer]

Aside from all the lawsuits, dive ops' needs to protect themselves and other diving related things, another thing to consider is the number of other ways (in organized activies or by yourself) that one can do stupid things and die. But we shouldn't have yet more laws to prevent people from doing them.

 

[it_mike]

My rights only end where someone else's begin. My predilection for doing stupid stuff is my business, no one else's.

That said, my right to be an idiot doesn't convey to a dive operator's obligation to empower me. Just because I want to shoot the Vandenburg in my skivvies with a SpareAir, doesn't mean they have to chauffeur me.

 

[mongodives]

If someone wants to do something dangerous, go for it. Just don't expect/demand others to facilitate it or save you when it goes bad.

Also please inform your family/friends/co-workers that you do not want any lawsuits filed with the intent to profit off your death/injury or punish those who did not help you in your endeavor or risk themselves in saving you.

 

[Mike Boswell]

If I had my way, everyone would be perfectly free to do anything they wanted to, and they would be solely responsible for all of the consequences.

Unfortunately, reality is a little different than the ideal. When someone gets themselves in trouble, other people have to go to the rescue, and society generally has to foot the bills.

Want to dive to 250 feet on air? That is fine with me, IF you will be responsible for the consequences, including the costs of the Coast Guard helicopter and crews, medical care, and the lifetime care required by a quadriplegic.

 

[BradnerBoy]

We have our rights and personal freedom to do risky things, but I think one of the issues is this: What is society's (read: taxpayer's), tolerance for ultimately having to pay for another person's carelessness/stupidity/bad luck...including diving accidents?

To illustrate my point....

In most Canadian provinces, we pay a small monthly fee for our health care. Assuming the majority of people within the system are healthy, we're not a drain on the health resources, relative to what we pay.

However, let me take the recent case of a buddy of ours who, after experiencing some considerable discomfort after a dive, had some of the best care money can buy. He got an emergency response within a few minutes of the 911 call, all the delicious O2 he could suck back, multiple, (relatively) well paid professionals attended the scene (EMS, fire/rescue) and to top it all off, a chopper was flown in to whisk him off the one of the best hospitals in the country where, arguably, the top Doc and hyperbaric chamber in the land where readied for his arrival. For this level of care, he (like most of us) pays about than $100/mo, or so. No additional bill will arrive in the mail. No other charges, whatsoever will be levied against him.

Is that to say his care was free? Hell no. I can't imagine what it cost the taxpayers (including me!) for that level of care. AFAIC, it's money well spent, especially when it's a friend.

My ultimate point is this; for all the scuba divers (careful or otherwise), all the out-of-bound skiers, lost hikers, snowmobilers caught in avalanches, etc. that require expensive, professional assistance when their sport/hobby gets them into trouble, at what point will society say, "enough! It's too expensive to allow these activities to continue without consequence".

Government may not directly limit our freedoms by enacting laws to prevent us from doing what we love to do, but they can sure as hell make it too expensive and perhaps beyond the financial reach of many by charging user fees, or licensing a sport/hobby or worse, setting a cost threshold or cap for care, then billing the victim/patient for charges above and beyond. Can you imagine the cost for the care my buddy received?

I wouldn't want to be sitting in a chamber for an 8 hour ride thinking, "jeez, what's this gonna cost me???" But I can see the day when things we take for granted today, are less frequently enjoyed or worse, no longer enjoyed because of the ultimate cost of doing them.

I hope that day never comes for divers.

 

[Superlyte27]

These threads are funny. /shhh we better not tell anyone about my 60 feet on pure oxygen for 30 minutes.

Deep air doesn't kill people, incompetance does. Guys, for some people 100' is the limit, for others 320' (which ironically used to be the Navy's standard). It's different for everyone. It's something you work up to. My first bike wasn't a Hayabusa, it was a Honda XR-80. Narcosis doesn't come on like a punch in the face, it's slow, you can feel it if you are paying attention. If it's a problem, ascend.

Diving is dangerous. Certainly diving deep isn't for everyone. But quite honestly, both the Navy and the Commercial Diving industry tell me that 218 is good to go on air. I cannot afford Trimix for a 100' dive, and until I have any incling of danger on air above 200', I'll continue to dive it. It's my educated, aware of all the risks, completely informed choice. Knowing everything I know about diving (with experience in nearly every arena of diving accept maybe ice diving) I feel absolutely completely comfortable above 200' on air. But, just because it works for me and others doesn't mean it works for everyone. And I certainly didn't get there overnight.

 

[Chugwhump]

I agree with virtually all of the sentiments here as to personal freedom, and I only have a couple observations.
I do not like it when rescue crews are called out to clean up other messes unnecessarily.
What I mean by that is:
Yes, sometimes folks get in over their heads with stupidity, arrogance, or ignorance...whatever.
I guess we grumble a lot, and I am a proponent of Mr. Darwin, but I would prefer that people do not die for the most part. Paying for the welfare (social security and free lunch in schools for instance..there are others) of the families that may be left behind is kind of annoying
It annoys me for instance (and they are NOT the only group) that the crews fishing professionally in some instances on insane seas get to call others to come get them when they "do a stoopid". Very often lack of sleep, drug consumption, poor training or poor equipment maintenance are the root cause of these situations.
So often we the taxpayers are not reimbursed for the non fixed costs of rescue teams. There are some folks that say...that is their job, that is what we pay them for, and to a point, they are correct.
Besides, having once been 22 years old and very very good at dealing with some dangerous situations, my attitude was "let me at 'em. I just want to rescue fools".
More war, more war!
Somewhere along the line I matured, and no longer want our young people to unneccessarily put themselves at risk due to the poor choices of others.
For instance:
We can sit and say, screw those people for taking their 20' sailboat out when the seas were expected to kick up to 10', and then we find out there are children aboard, and she really did not like the boat anyway, but he got her to go.
Grumble...grumble....OK Let's go!
I feel that I owe it to everyone not to do do something stupid to prove myself to myself.
That being said, I am not a fan of legislating the behavior of fools, for the most part.
Chug
Thinks it is a complex issue.

 

[Rhone Man]

Example: Can someone fresh out of OW training with no further experience, cocky and immature, 18 years old on a dare from his new frat. buddies at college (not to diss frat.s; just a convenient example) go solo deep dive (on air, single tank) the wreck of the Oriskany?

Quite close to your example: when I was in Cyprus I saw divers with only OW certs doing repetitive dives on the Zenobia on air (single tanks), and putting themselves well into deco. I thought to say something, but then I thought: 'You know what - they are big boys and girls [aside: they were all soldiers and used to getting shot at on active service], they can make their own decisions about risks.'