General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The general, off topic comments and discussion on the Vortex Incident have been split to this thread

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Personally I believe he's in there, down a little clay-lined slick hole, perhaps even buried in a local collapse. There was a fairly large sand and clay collapse a couple months ago, and it isn't unusual for a few small ones to follow a big one until the system settles again.
Sure would be nice if someone could actually spot the body and remove all doubt, but it won't be me going back there, and it won't be me asking anyone else to go back there either.
Rick

I'd like to point out for those that don't know that Vortex is not a naturally occurring cave. It was excavated and there is a sand dredge in there that removes sediment from the cave. Conditions at the back of this cave are not typical and collapses are more likely and frequent than in naturally occurring caves.

 

[sabbath999]

I'd like to point out for those that don't know that Vortex is not a naturally occurring cave. It was excavated and there is a sand dredge in there that removes sediment from the cave. Conditions at the back of this cave are not typical and collapses are more likely and frequent than in naturally occurring caves.

When I was there, I had a nice conversation with somebody (Eduardo?) about all the stuff they have had to do to keep Vortex open and flowing, about the piping system, how they pump the sand out of there, etc. It very much isn't "sit back and let the water flow" the cave has had some SERIOUS work done to it in the sand removal department in the very recent past.

 

[mike_s]

I'd like to point out for those that don't know that Vortex is not a naturally occurring cave. It was excavated and there is a sand dredge in there that removes sediment from the cave. Conditions at the back of this cave are not typical and collapses are more likely and frequent than in naturally occurring caves.

I know they vaccumed out the silt in the bottom (or thought they did), but did they actively dig into the support walls or flooring ? ( beyond the silt? )

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's disturbing that the family is still asking for more people to risks their lives on continued searches ... given that the best divers available have already searched and have concluded that further searches are too risky.

It's the same inability to take "no" for an answer that got this young man into the situation in the first place. I can understand their need for closure ... but what about the risks to those who are searching?

Last thing this story needs is another casualty ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

I know they vaccumed out the silt in the bottom (or thought they did), but did they actively dig into the support walls or flooring ? ( beyond the silt? )

I was told it was just a creek/spring until Doc excavated the spring basin years ago. What degree of excavation, if any to the cave itself I can't speak for. I just wanted to clarify that it is not a natural phenomenon and as such it has some unique aspects to it. Some of the long term residents of the area can probably chime in regarding any excavation, etc.

It's disturbing that the family is still asking for more people to risks their lives on continued searches ... given that the best divers available have already searched and have concluded that further searches are too risky.

It's the same inability to take "no" for an answer that got this young man into the situation in the first place. I can understand their need for closure ... but what about the risks to those who are searching?

Last thing this story needs is another casualty ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hopefully anyone that shows up and volunteers will be vetted by staff or law enforcement. I can just see this becoming a draw for egocentrics or glory hounds wanting to be the one to make the recovery.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Hopefully anyone that shows up and volunteers will be vetted by staff or law enforcement. I can just see this becoming a draw for egocentrics or glory hounds wanting to be the one to make the recovery.

This may be a stupid question but are the caves still closed off to divers? Considering it is a crime scene I would guess yes. If not, how would anybody (Mgmnt or authorities) stop someone else from doing something stupid in an effort to gain the spotlight?

 

[The Kraken]

I would think that the recovery should be being administrated by the local law enforcement officials with validation of participant credentials by Vortex as to the prospective recover divers' certifications and abilities.

the K

 

[Rick Murchison]

It appears that much of the cave itself is natural, but also that much of it was impassable until some sand was dredged/vacuumed from some areas. The restriction at the gate, for example, if left to its own, will fill in with sand enough to make it impassable. So will the bedding plane beyond the crack. I don't know if a diver could have gotten to the cave before Doc's excavation of the area around the spring mouth, but the cave itself was there... there are some ancient geologic features - domes and water-worn cracks, for example - attesting to this.
Rick

I was told it was just a creek/spring until Doc excavated the spring basin years ago. What degree of excavation, if any to the cave itself I can't speak for. I just wanted to clarify that it is not a natural phenomenon and as such it has some unique aspects to it. Some of the long term residents of the area can probably chime in regarding any excavation, etc.

 

[Meister481]

I know they vaccumed out the silt in the bottom (or thought they did), but did they actively dig into the support walls or flooring ? ( beyond the silt? )

Digging into the walls is a recipe for disaster. All I did was look back where these guys went and I wouldn't even consider doing any digging back there. Too deep, too nasty and the risk/reward is very skewed to the risk side. Again, this is why they were there in the first place. No need to add to the body count.

I had planned to go in and Video the cave in July, but the trip fell through due to several factors. I'd still like to video it and post it, just so that others won't feel the need to dive it. It's not that pretty. Especially with a big old pipe running through it. Next time I do a weekend trip down, I'll bring the GoPro and video the thing to the last restriction, just so people understand what the system requires. You can see sand dust devils and bits of clay whipping about at the restrictions. Like I posted in the conditions report, not worth the effort and deco.

 

[mike_s]

I was told it was just a creek/spring until Doc excavated the spring basin years ago. What degree of excavation, if any to the cave itself I can't speak for. I just wanted to clarify that it is not a natural phenomenon and as such it has some unique aspects to it. Some of the long term residents of the area can probably chime in regarding any excavation, etc.

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I knew about excavating the basin by Dockery and crew, but I wasn't sure about inside the cave what had been done and was that just silt removal or other?