General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Kevin Carlisle]

After re-watching the interview with the brother, Tim McDaniels, it sounds like a video might go a long way toward helping the family understand what it looks like down there, what the searchers saw, and why requesting more divers is not a good idea.
A video might help them have some closure.

I don't think that would work unless you talk the same divers who went there into going back. A normal cave diver will not go in spots this small and stopping short of it really won't do any justice.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think that people (mainly family and friends) need to accept that it is possible that the body will never be found. This is difficult to hear and even more difficult to do but to put anybody in jeopardy is nothing short of selfish. The best have gone in and come back empty. That right there means that nobody else should be asked to go further.

 

[Cave Diver]

Here are some videos (not mine) that give an idea of the first part of the cave up to the gate.

 

[pattidives]

My concern with more volunteering would be if they are not familiar with the Vortex system. I am not a cave diver, but I could only imiagine it would be very dangerous for someone to try to recover a body in a cave system they have never entered before. Like I said I am not a cave diver so I don't know for sure. The last thing they need is for someone else to get themselves into trouble.

 

[RhinoGuy]

Im a little worried that people are going to be looking for the body later on and get hurt.

 

[netmage]

Recovery must be done by ICURR (sic) people or you have committed a crime.

While I certainly wouldn't disagree with the sentiment that the IUCRR and it's organization, procedures and policy are the best people equipped to respond to a cave recovery,....

To suggest that a recovery by anyone else is 'illegal' would imply that the IUCRR is mandated or codified into existence by statute or some legal authority - which it is not. The IUCRR is a organization assembled by the cave community as a resource for law enforcement.

I'm probably nitpicking - I think the proper notion your getting at is: Any Search\Recovery must be done by someone at the request of whichever LE organization in command of the scene... Otherwise you are some jackhole off the street and tampering w/ evidence.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Tim thanks. I was going off information I was told a while back from both ICURR and law enforcement officials. Main reason was tampering with evidence is a crime. Not sure who's right but you do make a valid point. I would snoop around but I have no intentions of becoming an ICURR person.

EArly in this thread it was mentioned that the body was a identified,but was not retreiveable, evidently it was too far back or thru an area that was not accessable. Was that information wrong? If not, I find it hard to believe that there is still an effort to search for this poor guy. If in fact the divers documented that there was a body present, the case should be closed. I sympathize with the family, how horrible this must be for them, but the people who dive this cave regularly are saying it is impossible to retrieve at this time.
What a horrible tragedy this is. My son and I dove there many years ago.

While I certainly wouldn't disagree with the sentiment that the IUCRR and it's organization, procedures and policy are the best people equipped to respond to a cave recovery,....

To suggest that a recovery by anyone else is 'illegal' would imply that the IUCRR is mandated or codified into existence by statute or some legal authority - which it is not. The IUCRR is a organization assembled by the cave community as a resource for law enforcement.

I'm probably nitpicking - I think the proper notion your getting at is: Any Search\Recovery must be done by someone at the request of whichever LE organization in command of the scene... Otherwise you are some jackhole off the street and tampering w/ evidence.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

I have another question. Is it typical when a diver is lost/missing in a cave system like this and presumed dead that it is treated as a crime scene? I don't know if I have ever heard of this before. If it's typical then so be it. But if not, does anyone know why this is being treated a little differently?

Any death that is un-natural is considered a homicide. At my department, unless a death at home is hospice or home health (can't afford hospice but someone will die at home due to their illness) related, we investigate it. Suicides are also investigated as a homicide in case information comes up later that would suggest it wasn't a suicide. We have a team of officers that investigate traffic fatalities or serious injury. We close the whole road and work it as if it was a homicide (because it is). We photograph everything in and around the scene so that we can look back if a question comes up later that wasn't brought up in the begining.

When a person dies in a cave, let's say JB, and there was someone there to witness the event to some degree, the scene would likely not be secured and investigated the same way, as long as the victim's state corroberates the witnesses story.

In this case one can only suppose he is in there due to evidence found, but since he wasn't found and there may be possible info leading to a hoax (don't know, just throwing it out for example) the whole thing is considered a crime scene because it is likely a homicide (un-natural death) occurred. Once a scene is released, or not secured at all, you cannot go back and gather information because it is in a different state than it was immediately after it was secured.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[ScubaNurse758]

Which part is being considered a crime scene? I was lead to believe that the park was open over the weekend, so is just the cave roped off or the parking area where his car was left, or is the diving area as a whole being searched?

 

[mike_s]

Which part is being considered a crime scene? I was lead to believe that the park was open over the weekend, so is just the cave roped off or the parking area where his car was left, or is the diving area as a whole being searched?

From the video I saw, initially they closed off the whole basin area with yellow tape.

At that time they didn't know if he was in the basin, the cave, etc. I'm sure his truck was included in being a "closed off area" as it searched for clues of his whereabouts.

I think the cave is still closed for diving. however I think the basin and now open for diving (as he's not in the basin).