Problems with Advanced and Stress/Rescue Class

[Gdaaym8z]

As for diving with an SSI trained diver - I'd suggest you worry much less about the agency and chat with every potential buddy to understand their expectations, knowledge and experience. I can definitly assert that with SSI's approach that an "Advanced Open Water Diver" requires multiple specialties and a minumum of 24 dives, someone holding an SSI AOW card has a great potential to be a better diver than the great number of "advanced" divers who complete an "advanced course" immediately after completing open water and have an "advanced" card with 9 dives under their belt...

]QUOTE]

I have to agree with the above comment. Each agency has it's pro and cons. I find it laughable when I hear of someone who is "advanced" with as few as 12 dives. (Read: PADI)

As for the SSI Stress & Rescue class it is a quality course and is every bit as good as any of the other agencies out there. Much of this will of course depend on the instructor teaching it.

I have looked over the PADI rescue materials and they are written in the same manor and are directed at the masses. I am interested to find NAUI's version as I suspect it is going to contain the same material and will also be written for "the masses."

To come on here and insult anyone who has trained with SSI and their diving abilities is out of line.....it's ok though...I doubt a lot of them would want to dive with you either.

I would just hope that if you do ever get into a situation where you need rescue assistance that the divers aiding you have some form of rescue training from any of the reputable agencies out there.

Gday.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

NAUI's rescue manual reads more like a real text book. There are no ads for continuing education or childish cartoons. It is simply good and thorough information. Our (SEI's) rescue manual is not as big but also has no cartoons or ads and is not written for the lowest common denominator. I don't write my courses that way either. It frankly is insulting to do so to those who would be considered the "lowest common denominator" from my perspective. Education should challenge not cater to or patronize. Intelligently written materials may actually help bring the student up in all aspects of their lives by requiring them to put in a bit more effort. Not requiring some effort is why we have kids that cannot read. Why should they? In college they can take an oral exam- if they can also play football that is.

The instructors for NAUI and my own agency have a great deal of latitude to introduce and test on real world skills as well as those in the standards. One I use with rescue students is to just say we are going on a relaxing swim and while navigating us back go "unconscious" and sink to the bottom. No warning, no prior notice. It tests not only rescue but buddy skills as well.

 

[flots am]

One I use with rescue students is to just say we are going on a relaxing swim and while navigating us back go "unconscious" and sink to the bottom. No warning, no prior notice. It tests not only rescue but buddy skills as well.

What happens when one of your students gets injured or dies trying to "rescue" you? All it would take is for one of them to panic and bolt for the surface without breathing.

Training is fine. Scaring the crap out of an unsuspecting student isn't.

How many students have you actually pulled this stunt on?

flots.

 

[acelockco]

Thank you Jim. I understand how many people get very upset at me because I am not afraid to voice my opining and it is great to see that someone can see past all of the bologna here and understand the issue I have.

I am going to start looking for a NAUI instructor and in fact and going to see if my original instructor is still teaching. I just need a more technical type of learning then what PADI or SSI offers. Oh, I just noticed you are from PA, maybe we can work something out.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

What happens when one of your students gets injured or dies trying to "rescue" you? All it would take is for one of them to panic and bolt for the surface without breathing.

Training is fine. Scaring the crap out of an unsuspecting student isn't.

How many students have you actually pulled this stunt on?

flots.

So far 5. And if I had any idea that they would, they would not have even started the class. They get no warning in the ocean or on a lake dive. They have already done the unconscious diver to the surface. If they originally certed through me they did it in OW, AOW, and with notice in the rescue class. Prepared students don't get scared they act.

And after don;t create a second victim, expect the unexpected is pretty well covered in all of my classes.

 

[acelockco]

That is the way I learned. In my opinion the idea is you should be ready always, and not have advance warning of a situation. In real life no one is going to tell you beforehand that something is going to go wrong. Difficult training makes better divers in my opinion.

FYI, during my open water checkout my instructor knocked my mask off and turned my air off right after that. He wanted to make sure I didn't panic. I kept my cool, found my pony regulator, then calmly put my mask back on. After that, I am sure he knew I wouldn't panic in the future if something went wrong. The fact is I have had my mask knocked off on more then one occasion and it was never a problem. I have been on more then one dive where my or someone else in the group had an equipment failure or other problem. I have always been able to deal with these issues in a calm and thought out manner without panic....because I was trained to deal with the situation.

I am thankful that there are instructors out there like Jim that understand the need for proper training.

 

[flots am]

They get no warning in the ocean or on a lake dive. They have already done the unconscious diver to the surface. If they originally certed through me they did it in OW, AOW, and with notice in the rescue class. Prepared students don't get scared they act.

Well, good luck with that. Buy lots of insurance.

flots.

 

[acelockco]

I have to disagree with your assessment.

Come on, I am sure you know what I am saying is out of frustration and is being used to explain my point while giving a little dig to make me laugh a little. I really thought the people here would understand and sympathize (or laugh) with me so I would feel a little better, and some of you have. Unfortunately the majority of you decided to throw gas on the fire instead of helping a friend in need. It really does reinforce some of my thoughts about SSI and the other divers out there. Because of this, I feel very fortunate to have my wife as my dive buddy and we almost always dive together. I now know why so many divers won't dive with people they don't know.

I just got a telephone call from my original instructor earlier this evening. After speaking to him about my frustration I immediately felt better. He has been an instructor for 34 years!!! I know now that someone that has been doing this for longer than just about anyone agrees with me.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Well, good luck with that. Buy lots of insurance.

flots.

So what scenarios do you run in your rescue classes? My own rescue class years ago that was through PADI included a lost diver scenario. That is all we were told. Did not know where, what condition they were in, or even what they looked like save they had gear on and were in a black wetsuit. A lot to go on. And frankly I would not put an OW diver in on checkouts if I thought coming across an unconscious diver would make them bolt.

Not much different than doing skils in midwater as opposed to on a platform. No platforms in the ocean that I'm aware of. Just as no notice when you could run into a distressed diver. Better to have the first time under controlled conditions with a similarly trained buddy. While we do cover and do one person rescues, it is more likely with properly trained divers that they will, as a buddy team, come across someone who is not so well trained that needs help. So a great deal of time is spent on performing rescues as team. And do you in your classes talk about the psychological effects on the rescuer? I do. It helps them prepare so much better for the unexpected.

 

[flots am]

And frankly I would not put an OW diver in on checkouts if I thought coming across an unconscious diver would make them bolt.

Nobody can tell how anybody will react in a real emergency, until it happens. Even the military can't predict all panic attacks during training. You've just been lucky. If you do enough students like this, eventually someone is going to get injured or killed.

Not much different than doing skils in midwater as opposed to on a platform.

That's just silly. Performing a skill while hovering has nothing to do with believing your instructor just died or lost consciousness under water.

Better to have the first time under controlled conditions with a similarly trained buddy.

"Controlled conditions" require control. Like a pool. And someone to watch the students when you're "dead." And if you're "dead", you don't have direct supervision of the students, which is required by all the agencies I'm aware of.

flots.