Cave Fills on LP tanks

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... I'd be a lot more reticent about overfilling aluminum tanks than steel ones ... even if they can take it, I doubt they'd survive more than one or two hydro cycles before they ended up as scrap metal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

AL cracks/shatters, steels can expand/contract before tearing. This is day 1 stuff of a cave diving course, no?

Bob is correct to be somewhat more conservative with Aluminum.

And, both Aluminum and Steel alloys used for common engineering applications, will experience first elastic and then plastic deformation, when subjected to increasing mechanical load. We try to avoid brittle fracture whenever possible and certainly in the case of scuba tanks that get banged around.

To understand the differences between these two materials, let's take a tension spring made out of Aluminum and one made from Steel and pull them. For each spring, there is a point at which the spring has been permanently stretched and will not 'spring' back to its original length. They yielded once we exceeded the yield strength of the material.

When we cram gas in our scuba tanks the tank will expand and hopefully spring back to its original size when emptied. We do not want tanks that have 'cheeks' (however small) after a fill.

The difference between Aluminum and Steel alloys used for scuba tanks is that the modulus of elasticity (spring rate) and yield strength is lower for Aluminum. That is the reason why an Aluminum tank has thicker walls, has more external volume, and is heavier for the same pressurized capacity. Aluminum is not a very efficient material for pressure cylinders (and springs) but it is cheaper to make tanks from it and the buoyancy characteristics may be more appealing, depending on our needs.

Once we pressurise a cylinder beyond the yield strength of the material, the wall of the cylinder will get thinner permanently. It should be clear that at this point the end is near. Either the pressure will continue to rise (filling or heating in the trunk of a car) until the cylinder blows or the next couple of fill cycles (again reducing the wall thickness) will cause catastrophic failure.

During hydrotesting, any plastic deformation beyond a 'grace' limit is considered reason for condemnation. However, hydrostatic testing is performed at 1.5 times the maximum operation pressure for most cylinders. This pressure is stamped into the cylinder after the letters TP.

Now we could hastily assume: If the hydro facility did not detect worrisome plastic deformation at 1.5 times the operating pressure then we should be fine with a cave fill to the same level. There is one little catch here - Fatigue. And this is where Aluminum looses hands down against Steel.

In the early days of pressurized airplanes, engineers where really surprised when fuselages failed catastrophically and blew the lid well below their elastic design limit. Back in the lab it was discovered that Aluminum will fatigue during repetitive load cycles at any(!) load, even if that load is well below yield stress. Another reason why we are not going to find many springs made from Aluminum.

Steel will fatigue too if stressed close to yield strength but in the case of scuba cylinders most of us may not get old enough to experience failure, UNLESS
a) the cylinders were of marginal design and had trouble passing even the first hydro
b) we exceed the elastic deformation limit through intentional or accidental (heat in car) overpressurization
c) corrosion reduced the wall thickness
d) pitting caused stress risers that aggravate fatigue
(The last two go typically hand in hand)

I am not suggesting what we do or not do with our tanks, just trying to shed some light on the factors involved.

Here is an interesting Navy study on scuba tanks. But please let's read the section about the destructive potential before getting any bad ideas while looking at the reported burst pressures.
 
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worry less about deco time and more about that o2 exposure.

I've done some fairly long exposures. never had these symptoms. try lowering that bottom ppo2. I find standard gases and backgas breaks help. as well as going to backgas before a switch for a little cleanup.

That's what I have found to work the best. I don't like using 32 at JB for big dives, Usually end up with 26 or so for a dive like this. Any longer deco and I'll go with a second deco gas. The only reason I posted was for using O2 as the only gas for a dive with this much back gas. It's the limit of such for me. Only fried my lungs once, and got them irritated once. That was enough for me.

I wonder how much of this is bottom gas related, and how much is deco gas. If it's CNS clock related, it gets tons worse @ 20ft. The WKPP guys are pushing 1300-1600% or more on the CNS clock, and even at Ginnie I've seen Ainslie push his close to 800%, but I do know he's generous with air breaks during deco.

Think slowing the ascent to give the lungs time to recover on a very low (backgas) ppo2 before hopping right back on the bottle could play into things here? With a short half life, seems 5-10min recovery @ 30ft would do quite a bit to lower CNS.

Meister481, what air breaks are you doing to split up the deco?

The WKPP dives are well beyond my abilities and knowledge level. Andrew's dives are well beyond me as well. Have a while to go before I get there. Rebreather is the next step in that direction.

It was definitely BG related, there is no other explanation. Anything under 20 minutes, no breaks, 20-60 minutes 12 on 3 off, over that 12 on 5 off. As far as the slow ascent goes, I do 3 stops in the chimney at JB.

I'm not going any further with my planning in this thread, I don't need some douche killing himself by using my gas/deco schedule instead of getting trained.

well IMO it adds up. there's no reason to run a high ppo2 on the bottom other than deco weenery. I don't do it. and the guys at wakulla you're referencing don't do it either :p

it's necessary on deco. it's not during the working portion of the dive. being generous with backgas breaks on the way up goes a long way. and count the breaks as part of the deco. if you're burning your lungs up something is wrong.

the last trimix dive I did put me at about 160% CNS. no burning throat or lungs.

32 is fine for the short dives, keeps me off the bottle and resting on shore.

The breaks save you, that's for sure. I upped mine after my issue. No longer happens, ever. Been a long time since I did so.
 
Not really the venue.

I'm not going any further with my planning in this thread, I don't need some douche killing himself by using my gas/deco schedule instead of getting trained.

No problem. I've copied the discussion to a more appropriate venue for anyone wishing to discuss it. :)
 
Think slowing the ascent to give the lungs time to recover on a very low (backgas) ppo2 before hopping right back on the bottle could play into things here? With a short half life, seems 5-10min recovery @ 30ft would do quite a bit to lower CNS.

<snip> the last trimix dive I did put me at about 160% CNS. no burning throat or lungs.

I'm not going any further with my planning in this thread, I don't need some douche killing himself by using my gas/deco schedule instead of getting trained.

Hi guys,

If I promise not to pull a 'douche' stunt, could you please PM me the continued thread. I am curious how you practically connect the physiologically different beasts of pulmonary and CNS toxicity.
 
There appears to be come confusion regarding CNS% and OTUs. They are not the same thing. OTUs relates to pulmonary damage, CNS refers to neurological issues.
 
Hi guys,

If I promise not to pull a 'douche' stunt, could you please PM me the continued thread. I am curious how you practically connect the physiologically different beasts of pulmonary and CNS toxicity.

You might want to try a few books on the subject. I like the IANTD technical diving encyclopedia. I don't buy all the karate mumbo jumbo, but the science behind the book is solid. It's the same beast, O2, just different symptoms.

There appears to be come confusion regarding CNS% and OTUs. They are not the same thing. OTUs relates to pulmonary damage, CNS refers to neurological issues.

And there always will be....lol

Back on topic!
 
I bought a (fairly old) set of LP 72s, and everyone uses Aluminium in this part of the world, so whether I like it or not, I get fills to 3,100 psi whenever I take them in.

Haven't blown up yet is all I can say. I kind of like diving "88s".
Seriously those 40 year old tanks can handle that much pressure 3000 psi or 3100. Wow yes that is nice 88 cubic feet is lovely.
 
I have double l.p. 108s and my dive shop fills them an additional 10% my tanks are always at about 3200 3400 never had a problem
I'm 5'8" 220lbs I can lug those suckers around np the rig weighs 130lbs no extra lead needed I honestly don't notice any drag
 
I take it back. Have since got burning throat and lungs on bigger dives than I was doing back then. It’s a real thing
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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