On a dive trip off Largo I was partnered up with a fellow whose wife was trying to pass her pool stuff at the local Holiday Inn while we were out diving. For the three days that we were dving she was with an instrutor trying to get the handg of removing her mask, clearing it and putting it back on. Never did pass it. Another time I got stuck with a half dozen young students on a dive off of Tavernier. It was a little choppy. Out of the six, three were so seasick that they never even suited up. Another time on Largo a guy's wife panicked and bolted to the surface three times from around 10 feet. She never completed an OW dive in the two trips that I shared with them.
what reasons have you seen people not pass certifications?
- Thread starter k ellis
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I once had a woman student whose husband had bought her OW lessons as a Christmas present. She was pretty tentative in the pool, but with some additional work made it to the point where I felt she was ready for her checkout dives. About three minutes into the first dive she gave me the thumb. We went to the surface and she told me she couldn't do this. We surface swam back to shore, where her husband was waiting. I helped her out of her gear, told the two of them they needed to discuss things and decide what to do, and walked off to give them some privacy. A few minutes later the husband came over and apologized to me, saying this was something his wife would probably never enjoy doing.
In this case, I didn't fail her ... she failed herself.
I've had several students who I would put in the "tentative" category. Generally speaking, as long as they're willing to keep putting effort into the class I'm willing to keep working with them. Most eventually work through whatever issues were causing their stress, and go on to complete the class. In one particular instance, the student went on to become a kick-ass diver who has now logged several hundred dives and absolutely loves it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
In this case, I didn't fail her ... she failed herself.
I've had several students who I would put in the "tentative" category. Generally speaking, as long as they're willing to keep putting effort into the class I'm willing to keep working with them. Most eventually work through whatever issues were causing their stress, and go on to complete the class. In one particular instance, the student went on to become a kick-ass diver who has now logged several hundred dives and absolutely loves it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
That is exactly the patience that finally helped my gf earn her OW. Her lessons/certification sure were not a big $$ maker for the Course director, but he did earn her $ ( and more than just a bit of mine :depressed
in gear upgrades after that. I recommend him and his people to anyone in our region looking for training.
paddler3d
Guest
I think this is a dangerous and arrogant attitude to use for instruction.
Even the Army doesn't pass everybody. The standards to get in can be pretty low, but not everyone makes it. You know what, that is fine.
You sound as if it is your fault that a student wasn't able to pass. You place no accountability of the student.
I was the DM for a class that had 4 students. One of the students, 68 year old grandfather, had previously not completed Open Water because of ear issues. He was back, he had passed his physical and had physician sign off.
He wasn't the oldest student I had worked with, so his age didn't bother me. He was overweight, but who isn't.
He had gone through all the pool stuff again and he was fine. We're doing the checkout dives. We doing surface swim navigation exercises in snorkel gear. He was the perceived weakest student so I was going to stay close to him.
On one of the legs his snorkel had come loose from his mask and he started to aspirate water, basically it was a big straw.
He looked at me and I could see panic in his eyes. His eyes were as big a saucers. He couldn't get his face out of the water for more than 3-4 seconds and he wasn't listening to my instruction.
I ended up have to rescue him.
Long story short was he was fine. The problem was that he had limited range of motion in his left knee. He couldn't bend his knee and couldn't get his leg under him to right himself. He started to breath in water and panicked.
he wanted to continue the class!
It took some convincing to tell him no he wasn't.
Keep in mind he had passed the swim test and the treading water test in the pool a few weekends before.
We told the story to one of our buddies who happened to be his initial instructor. She had told the shop owner that he should not continue with the class, that he was an accident waiting to happen. Apparently she refused to take him on as a student again and he got passed to us. No worries the shop is no longer open as of Dec.
I can't climb 5.12 anymore and that is fine.
I doubt I could pass a quantum physics class and that is fine.
We all have our limits. We all have our weakness and strengths.
If a student can't pass the class and you have given the old college try it is fine to not let them pass. In fact, you're doing them a favor. You're being the responsible one and looking out for their safety.
Saying we 'don't let anyone fail' is dangerous and arrogant.
Saying 'we'll provide you with the tools, training, and mentoring you so that you can pass the class' put the ownership of success, or failure, on the student. Ultimately that students is going to have to go out own their own.
After all they can go to Cancun and get that.
In my brief career I've:
a. had to tell one student I wouldn't pass her now, but I'd work with her if she really wanted to learn -- she was very relieved and went on her way (got an email from her saying she had had a wonderful time snorkeling).
b. had one student look at me during an OW checkout and say, "I'm just too old, fat and out of shape to do this." She was, in fact, quite comfortable in the water (had been a diver 30+ years earlier) and wanted to do this again to go diving with her grandkids -- but she was, in fact, very out of shape and just decided it was now too physical for her.
c. had a couple of students who couldn't pass the exams because they didn't study -- "Too much schoolwork." Interestingly, both were quite good in the water.
d. I have several students who say they are going to finish their classes (different ones) but who never seem to have time.
e. So far, I've had two who didn't get medical clearance.
f. Me, I finally finished my GUE Fundies class (took many months after the class) but only after taking "diving lessons" from another instructor who was able to diagnose my trim problems and fix them.
a. had to tell one student I wouldn't pass her now, but I'd work with her if she really wanted to learn -- she was very relieved and went on her way (got an email from her saying she had had a wonderful time snorkeling).
b. had one student look at me during an OW checkout and say, "I'm just too old, fat and out of shape to do this." She was, in fact, quite comfortable in the water (had been a diver 30+ years earlier) and wanted to do this again to go diving with her grandkids -- but she was, in fact, very out of shape and just decided it was now too physical for her.
c. had a couple of students who couldn't pass the exams because they didn't study -- "Too much schoolwork." Interestingly, both were quite good in the water.
d. I have several students who say they are going to finish their classes (different ones) but who never seem to have time.
e. So far, I've had two who didn't get medical clearance.
f. Me, I finally finished my GUE Fundies class (took many months after the class) but only after taking "diving lessons" from another instructor who was able to diagnose my trim problems and fix them.
There are certainly a limited few who should not be diving at all... but they are an extremely limited few. Here is why...
Anyone who desires to go underwater can achieve that goal and become certified. In paddler3d's inaccurate description of the events as they pertained to his 68YO student, even this gentleman could have achieved his goals under the proper instruction and if needed, proper accomodations.
On the day of panic, had he had a good DM or Instructor with him, he would have calmed down and completed his certification. A discussion about panic would have been had and how to deal with it and maybe even a discussion about accomodations for diving with his knee condition.
The question is what certification should he/they receive and what limitations should be placed on divers needing special accomodations?
There are divers with handicaps getting certified all the time... not who just can't bend their leg - but who don't even have a leg to bend.
I support those who say anyone can learn to dive... and anyone should be able to receive a certification who can pass the minimum skill requirements with or without accomodation.
We have handicap people with amazing disfigurements who drive on our roads everyday... their licenses have restrictions.
We have divers with pacemakers and wounded warriors who come home from war and get dive certifications and they are given limits (dive with a buddy, stay above 30 ft etc....)
Some people never dive anywhere except for enclosed reefs in 20 ft of water with no current ... and God bless them.
Anyone who desires to go underwater can achieve that goal and become certified. In paddler3d's inaccurate description of the events as they pertained to his 68YO student, even this gentleman could have achieved his goals under the proper instruction and if needed, proper accomodations.
On the day of panic, had he had a good DM or Instructor with him, he would have calmed down and completed his certification. A discussion about panic would have been had and how to deal with it and maybe even a discussion about accomodations for diving with his knee condition.
The question is what certification should he/they receive and what limitations should be placed on divers needing special accomodations?
There are divers with handicaps getting certified all the time... not who just can't bend their leg - but who don't even have a leg to bend.
I support those who say anyone can learn to dive... and anyone should be able to receive a certification who can pass the minimum skill requirements with or without accomodation.
We have handicap people with amazing disfigurements who drive on our roads everyday... their licenses have restrictions.
We have divers with pacemakers and wounded warriors who come home from war and get dive certifications and they are given limits (dive with a buddy, stay above 30 ft etc....)
Some people never dive anywhere except for enclosed reefs in 20 ft of water with no current ... and God bless them.
Biggest cause of failure in OW trainng that i've had is related to having water against the nose and having to breathe on SCUBA. A small percentage of people are hard wired to always breathe through their nose. That's fine on the exhales but very problematic when inhaling. Some people, no matter how bad they want it, or how hard they try, just can't stop nose breathing. Interestingly i've found that women tend to be nose breathers more often than men.
I never kept track of it and it's not really a fail but i'd guess not wanting to sign any waivers is a pretty close second to that. More than one Attorney threatened to sue me if i didn't teach them when they wouldn't sign any waivers. That one always made my day.
I never kept track of it and it's not really a fail but i'd guess not wanting to sign any waivers is a pretty close second to that. More than one Attorney threatened to sue me if i didn't teach them when they wouldn't sign any waivers. That one always made my day.
Downing
Contributor
My understanding when my wife bailed on OW dives three and four was that she got a Scuba Diver card because she had completed the first two dives.
Are you saying you get a SD card even if you don't complete any of the dives? I was under the impression you could only get a referral in that situation.
Just looking for clarification, not even sure why.
The funny thing was my wife was thrilled when she got the SD card. We had assumed she had flunked the course when she quit and didn't find out about the SD cert until that night at our class pizza party. It was a nice way to end the day.
She's gone on to be a pretty decent diver, although she gets a little anxious before the first dive whenever we go anywhere. By the time we leave to come home, she's a diving maniac, first one in the water and often last one out. But the only way she'd ever get in the water around here is if I were to throw her overboard, and since I have to sleep with her...
Are you saying you get a SD card even if you don't complete any of the dives? I was under the impression you could only get a referral in that situation.
Just looking for clarification, not even sure why.
The funny thing was my wife was thrilled when she got the SD card. We had assumed she had flunked the course when she quit and didn't find out about the SD cert until that night at our class pizza party. It was a nice way to end the day.
She's gone on to be a pretty decent diver, although she gets a little anxious before the first dive whenever we go anywhere. By the time we leave to come home, she's a diving maniac, first one in the water and often last one out. But the only way she'd ever get in the water around here is if I were to throw her overboard, and since I have to sleep with her...
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