GUE/DIR/WKPP vs the world?

[Trace Malinowski]

Is that a GUēDO?

I told Bob not to teach that Jersey Shore primer.

 

[danvolker]

[/B]

You keep mentioning training and credentials, what other training does one need to safely dive Wakulla? What makes it any more dangerous than the other thousand or so caves in the state?

Answer this. Do you believe someone with nss-cds or nacd full cave can safely dive Wakulla?

Kevin,
How about checking out this current thread, and developing the death potential more ---this being the group more involved with the public anyway...
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-letter-open-water-diving-community-nacd.html

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Kevin,
How about checking out this current thread, and developing the death potential more ---this being the group more involved with the public anyway...
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-letter-open-water-diving-community-nacd.html

Your answer to his question about properly trained divers being able to dive in the environment their training was developed for, is to link a thread about non-trained OW divers going into an environment they aren't trained, equipped, or prepared for??? Did you actually read that thread?

Lots of luck with your "mission". I'm done with this thread.

Probably should have just stuck with this...

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Kevin,
How about checking out this current thread, and developing the death potential more ---this being the group more involved with the public anyway...
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-letter-open-water-diving-community-nacd.html

Dan, thats isnt an answer. What in Wakulla is more hazardous than anywhere else?

I was just in a cave that connects there on Friday evening, just wandering if I should be dead now.

 

[danvolker]

Your answer to his question about properly trained divers being able to dive in the environment their training was developed for, is to link a thread about non-trained OW divers going into an environment they aren't trained, equipped, or prepared for??? Did you actually read that thread?



Probably should have just stuck with this...

I am done argueing the WKPP vs the world thread....But I am interested to hear how either one of you guys would deal with the issues in that other thread on the accidents and solutions.....

It deals specifically with a large population ( the masses) which can put on scuba gear, and swim into a cave they are not prepared to be in.

Should you have "dive police" during park hours to prevent access by the untrained?
How would you respond to all the families of the deceased in the other thread?
I'd just like to know how you guys would think about that side of the equation.

 

[TSandM]

But Dan, isn't that an issue with ANY cave? Several of the Florida caves are in state parks, and they seem to be able to deal with the problem of untrained divers. I think it is a very legitimate question, to ask what it is about Wakulla (other than depth, which is shared by other sites) that makes it necessary to restrict access to it from other, well-trained cave divers.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I am done argueing the WKPP vs the world thread....But I am interested to hear how either one of you guys would deal with the issues in that other thread on the accidents and solutions.....

It deals specifically with a large population ( the masses) which can put on scuba gear, and swim into a cave they are not prepared to be in.

Should you have "dive police" during park hours to prevent access by the untrained?
How would you respond to all the families of the deceased in the other thread?
I'd just like to know how you guys would think about that side of the equation.

Dan, I am a little confused about how Wakulla would be any different from any other cave that is on private or public land based upon that thread. Some private land owners do not allow access at all - like what happened to Telford. You can access Telford from the river. If someone wants to call that a sneak dive, they can, but accessing from the river is legal. I know those who have sneaked into Wakulla. I used to sneak into a cave in another country we were supposed to dive only through permit.

Others such as Ginnie Springs charge admission. At Ginnie, you need to fill out a waiver and purchase a pass. Some people buy daily and others seasonally. They'll give you a bracelet and car pass for the day with your instructor, diver or student level written on each. The cave community does report violations such as open water divers with lights in the run at Devil's.

Peacock is an example of a state park in which diving is policed by park rangers who check for park passes and certification cards displayed in vehicles. Only cave divers are allowed at P1 - P3. At Madison, divers need to sign in at the ranger station and provide C-cards.

I remember getting access to Jackson Blue required us to go to the police station and pay there to obtain the key to the gate.

For years the cave diving community has tried to educate the diving public about the need for cave training. Untrained divers entering caves are a rare event in FL today thanks to these efforts by the NACD and the NSS-CDS. Grim Reaper and stop signs greet divers entering caves to provide a sobering warning and cave training is widely available.

In addition to the 5 Rules of Accident Analysis forged by Exley and Skiles, Jeff Bozanic has added 5 more rules for which PSAI has adopted as part of Accident Analysis 2008.

5 Rules of Accident Analysis:

1. Be trained for cave diving and never exceed the limits of your training.
2. Always reserve AT LEAST 2/3 of your gas supply for exit.
3. Always maintain a continuous guideline to open water (Some might say safe exit).
4. Always carry at least 3 lights.
5. Never dive deeper than 130 feet on air or have an END of greater than 130 feet on mixed gases (Some might say 100 feet max and max END).

(10 Rules including) Accident Analysis 2008:

6. Never dive solo.
7. Always maintain your skills and equipment for cave diving.
8. Don't go "too far too soon" and build cave diving experience when using advanced technologies such as rebreathers, stages, and DPV's.
9. Maintain your heath and physical fitness as you age and be aware of medical conditions or prescription drugs which may adversely effect diving safety.
10. Always analyze your gas prior to the dive!

These last 5 are linked to the deaths of today's trained cave divers.

Anyway, policing cave diving at Wakulla would be as simple as checking in with the rangers and presenting cave and trimix C-cards and displaying certs with a park pass for patrolling rangers or for the eyes of the cave diving community. You can bet that if the community gained access to Wakulla, the moment something seemed odd it would be reported.

 

[danvolker]

But Dan, isn't that an issue with ANY cave? Several of the Florida caves are in state parks, and they seem to be able to deal with the problem of untrained divers. I think it is a very legitimate question, to ask what it is about Wakulla (other than depth, which is shared by other sites) that makes it necessary to restrict access to it from other, well-trained cave divers.

Lynne and Trace,
It is a legitamate question, but it is not a question for me to answer....it is a question for the Park, or the state. There would be no reason for anyone to really care what my opinion on this is, it would be only an opinion--and it would change nothing.

All I can do is "guess" at the underlying motivations....."maybe", the state really does feel they need the hydrogeology research, because this area has so many key components which can be studied in detail here--and which are very hard to study with the same result quality in other places.......Maybe the WKPP likes doing the research as long as they can leave stage bottles at critical drop sites along many miles of cave---and not have to be concerned that some diver outside of the team, removed bottles critical for a team member that had been counting on the stage pickup during a major dive.....Maybe the WKPP does not want to do the big dives with huge research value, if there is no way to be certain that their stage bottles are secure.....it is not for super bugman or the other guy to decide whether or not this is an acceptable risk, because it was taken by some group somewhere else...that is entirely irrelevant. IF the WKPP does not want this risk, that is the issue that matters, if they are being asked to do the research dives.....

I enjoy Ocean Dives far more than cave dives, and the musings of this thread are not really an area I have an interest in pursueing.

I have many friends in the WKPP, so I have made more posts ( than I planned on) to show a side of this "arguement" that I thought should be visible.... For this thread to actually go beyond "maybe", I would think someone needs to go to the State Park with questions.

 

[rjack321]

But Dan, isn't that an issue with ANY cave? Several of the Florida caves are in state parks, and they seem to be able to deal with the problem of untrained divers. I think it is a very legitimate question, to ask what it is about Wakulla (other than depth, which is shared by other sites) that makes it necessary to restrict access to it from other, well-trained cave divers.

Few of those other State Parks have such an active and vocal "Friends of... " (Wakulla) group which does not want to share "their park" with other users. Wakulla Park management is not stupid. Its fairly obvious to me that the permit process is an intentional obstacle to the masses. It allows park management to affirm its resource protection mission, not look like they are completely biased (against divers) to politicians, while keeping the $$$ "Friends of..." group reasonably happy.

Its all about politics.

 

[Scott L]

Few of those other State Parks have such an active and vocal "Friends of... " (Wakulla) group which does not want to share "their park" with other users. Wakulla Park management is not stupid. Its fairly obvious to me that the permit process is an intentional obstacle to the masses. It allows park management to affirm its resource protection mission, not look like they are completely biased (against divers) to politicians, while keeping the $$$ "Friends of..." group reasonably happy.

Its all about politics.

Let them eat cake.