To Nitrox or not to nitrox ,Why and how ?

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I think he is refering to the fact that "DCS" is a very broad term and that regardless of how close you are to your NDL, if you scream to the surface at 200fpm you are going to be bent.

Yes, but that isn't what we are discussing here. We are discussing the difference between nitrox and air - the fact that violating ascent rates is a risk factor for DCI doesn't enter into the discussion.

Sure, there is not a good study to prove the added safety of nitrox on air tables (see my last post for that discussion). However, if one is claiming that your DCI risk is the same whether you are at depth for 2 minutes, for 90% of the NDL, or for well over the NDL into deco terrirtory, that would pretty much be at odds with the basic physiology of decompression as we have come to understand it.
 
Yes, but that isn't what we are discussing here. We are discussing the difference between nitrox and air - the fact that violating ascent rates is a risk factor for DCI doesn't enter into the discussion.

Sure, there is not a good study to prove the added safety of nitrox on air tables (see my last post for that discussion). However, if one is claiming that your DCI risk is the same whether you are at depth for 2 minutes, for 90% of the NDL, or for well over the NDL into deco terrirtory, that would pretty much be at odds with the basic physiology of decompression as we have come to understand it.

Thank you for clarify this matter!! I was worried that I might have missed something new regarding DCS when I was without internet in Libya the last few months.
 
Doc,

Just to make sure that I understand you point, you are saying that there is indeed benefit from using nitrox but diving air NDL limits. You are also saying that this benefit is based on "logic" and is not proven from experimental data but it is "thought" that one "should" be safer in terms of reducing the chances of DCS but no guarantees.

Well, I just dig out earwax for a living - I'm not a DAN dive medicine guru, and I wouldn't really make such definitive statements out of hand..! :)

However, I do know a good bit about research protocols and statistics used to draw supported conclusions. It is very important that all divers understand the nature of the science that we are using to keep us safe and healthy. Also, you should remember than there are NO guarantees at all in this sport - that is what an "undeserved" hit means. Tables are great, but there is a bell curve for everything.

In order to show a difference (between nitrox and air, or between two drugs, or between surgery and medical therapy, or whatever), you need to have valid evidence. However, there are different degrees of quality of evidence - ranging from the gold standard of a double-blinded, controlled, clinical trial down to mere expert opinion (which is frequently evoked as gospel, but not as strong from a scientific point of view).

The strongest type of evidence for a reduced undeserved DCI hit rate with nitrox vs. air when diving air tables would be generated by a study that might never be done - a double blinded trial. You would take N number of divers and randomize them into air divers and nitrox divers. You would then have them do identical profiles (or matched cohorts with different profiles, but with one air diver for every nitrox diver for a given profile). You would then have observers determine whether or not they had DCI without knowing which gas they were diving, and see if you could get data to support your hypothesis (reduced DCI with nitrox).

So what is N? That would depend, mainly on how common undeserved DCI was. If it turns out it happens once in 20 dives with nitrox, and once in 10 dives with air, you wouldn't need that big a study group. If it happens once in 100,000 dives with nitrox, and once in 95,000 dives with air, you would need a huge study group to pick up that small difference.

Also, there is the question of clinical significance even if you have demonstrated statistical significance. Statistics are funny things, as are the way that human beings use them. Look at the recent cell phone - brain tumor thing. Suppose that using a cell phone raises your risk of getting a brain tumor, but by less than flying across country does (increased exposure to cosmic radiation). You would have to determine if you personally are willing to give up using the phone in order to get that minuscule advantage.

Same with nitrox, if you are using it to avoid undeserved DCI, you need to know exactly how big an improvement in safety you can actually expect. If it turns out that you are more likely to be killed in a car accident while driving to your nitrox class (possible if the added safety benefit is low enough), then it's not worth it! Unfortunately, that number is hard to come by (as discussed above).

Finally, some things you just have to accept without having valid statistics. No one has done a double blinded study to prove the benefits of doing a tracheotomy in cases of acute complete airway obstruction that can't be fixed by other methods, so I guess we just do them because logic dictates that if you don't, the patient will die. You aren't going to get anyone to volunteer to be in the control arm of that study...! :)
 
Holy smokes! What a nit-pick-fest this thread has turned into.

I daresay, there are times when common sense really is sufficient and peer-reviewed, published, statistical studies pretty much irrelevant.

Are you less likely to incur DCS when diving EANx on air tables compared to diving air on air tables? Of course there is. Sorry I don't have a peer-reviewed published article to back up the statement but is that really necessary? Shall I ask the question this way; are you less likely to incur DCS when diving on air to a maximum depth of 34ft but according to the NDL limit for 50ft (on air)?

What kind of a mickey mouse scientist or statistician would waste his time to prove or disprove a statistical correlation? I guess the same mickey mouse scientist or statistician who would waste his time to prove or disprove a statistical correlation for the equivalent of diving EAN36 to 50ft according to the air NDL limit of 50ft.
 
Holy smokes! What a nit-pick-fest this thread has turned into.

I daresay, there are times when common sense really is sufficient and peer-reviewed, published, statistical studies pretty much irrelevant.

Are you less likely to incur DCS when diving EANx on air tables compared to diving air on air tables? Of course there is. Sorry I don't have a peer-reviewed published article to back up the statement but is that really necessary? Shall I ask the question this way; are you less likely to incur DCS when diving on air to a maximum depth of 34ft but according to the NDL limit for 50ft (on air)?

What kind of a mickey mouse scientist or statistician would waste his time to prove or disprove a statistical correlation? I guess the same mickey mouse scientist or statistician who would waste his time to prove or disprove a statistical correlation for the equivalent of diving EAN36 to 50ft according to the air NDL limit of 50ft.
I think what many are missing is that the occurance rate of DCS among the number of dives made worldwide is already so low that reducing the amount of nitrogen by diving nitrox will certainly lower the risk of DCS, but by how much? If the rate is now one in 100,000 and breathing nitrox made it one in 125,000 would that make you feel safer? If the speed limit is 65 and you drive 62, theoretically you would be safer, but there is no evidence to prove it either way.
If I'm working underwater, such as removing nets, I may use nitrox so I can stay down longer without incurring a lot of deco. I also use 50% nitrox for accelerated deco on deep dives, but I rarely make more than one or two dives a day so I don't use nitrox for recreational diving.
 
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What kind of a mickey mouse scientist or statistician would waste his time to prove or disprove a statistical correlation?

All of them. That's what science is. Sorry to waste your bandwidth.

Doc,

I wasn't asking for an opinion that I would publish in a trade publication. You are giving a "lawyer's" answer. I suppose your living in NYC explains it :)

Hehehe... sorry if it came off that way. I really wasn't trying to be defensive, or lawyerly (I'm assuming that you mean covering my bases, etc...).

It's just that I think that every diver should know the science behind the science - that is, how we know what we know, and to what degree to we know what we know. It's like the discussion of flying after diving - there is no way of doing an experiment to give you a reasonable number of hours that guarantees no DCI, you do that by looking at historical data and picking a safe but non-excessive interval.

The media tends to add to the confusion by reporting on research studies as if they absolutely prove things one way or the other. Real scientist know that this is almost never the case - it's a painstaking process of building statistical arguments over decades with often contradictory study findings....

In any case, I though that people might find that discussion helpful in deciding how to use the data that we do have when make personal diving decisions.

:)

Safe Diving, everyone..!


Mike
 
I am glad that I am an engineer :)

and how "exact" or "absolute" is much of the stuff WE do (note: I said "we") on a daily basis?

For me there are only two absolute truths:

(1) water flows downhill
(2) refer to #1

:coffee:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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