Lost Diver at Mill Pond Rescued

[MXGratefulDiver]

Every instructor has their own approach to teaching. Every student has their own approach to learning. It's important that the two are compatible. Otherwise it's unlikely you will leave the class having achieved little more than mimickry. There is no "right" way that works best for everyone ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Every instructor has their own approach to teaching. Every student has their own approach to learning. It's important that the two are compatible. Otherwise it's unlikely you will leave the class having achieved little more than mimickry. There is no "right" way that works best for everyone ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well Bob, my only issue with what you said is that in cave diving you either CAN or you CAN'T. Instructor shouldnt matter. If you CAN'T perform, you really could die very easily. My only fault with instructors is more people should be failing classes from what I see.

By the way and off topic, kudos for standing up for the GPO.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well Bob, my only issue with what you said is that in cave diving you either CAN or you CAN'T. Instructor shouldnt matter. If you CAN'T perform, you really could die very easily. My only fault with instructors is more people should be failing classes from what I see.

An instructor has two jobs. One is to assess your skills at the end of the training. The other is to provide effective instruction so that you learn the skills that will allow you to pass. My first technical instructor had a word for instruction--he called it "holding your hand." His instructional methodology followed this pattern: 1) tell you what to do (by name only) on the dive, 2) tell you why you failed the exercise, 3) mock you for your incompetence, 4) brag about what a tough ass instructor he is, as is evident from how hard it is to meet his standards.

I would have preferred that he "hold my hand" by doing things like explaining how the skill is done, showing a video, demonstrating, giving an opportunity to practice, etc. Since then I have sought instructors who hold my hand. I find it much easier to meet the standards that way, but it isn't because the standards are any lower.

 

[Jax]

Every instructor has their own approach to teaching. Every student has their own approach to learning. It's important that the two are compatible. Otherwise it's unlikely you will leave the class having achieved little more than mimicry. There is no "right" way that works best for everyone ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well Bob, my only issue with what you said is that in cave diving you either CAN or you CAN'T. Instructor shouldnt matter. If you CAN'T perform, you really could die very easily. My only fault with instructors is more people should be failing classes from what I see.

By the way and off topic, kudos for standing up for the GPO.

Agree with both . . .

For example, these mnemonics that show up in so many things, like SEABUDDY and NOTOX, etc. do not do a thing for me. Teach me, walk me through, let me do and when I understand, the process is way more locked in than trying to recall any mnemonics.

However, I have seen good students go to not-so-good instructors, and due to their own inner standard of excellence do very, very well. They CAN.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

An instructor has two jobs. One is to assess your skills at the end of the training. The other is to provide effective instruction so that you learn the skills that will allow you to pass. My first technical instructor had a word for instruction--he called it "holding your hand." His instructional methodology followed this pattern: 1) tell you what to do (by name only) on the dive, 2) tell you why you failed the exercise, 3) mock you for your incompetence, 4) brag about what a tough ass instructor he is, as is evident from how hard it is to meet his standards.

I would have preferred that he "hold my hand" by doing things like explaining how the skill is done, showing a video, demonstrating, giving an opportunity to practice, etc. Since then I have sought instructors who hold my hand. I find it much easier to meet the standards that way, but it isn't because the standards are any lower.

In my opinion, that wasnt an instructor, just somebody you gave money too so he could pump his own ego, and all too common. You can show people stuff all you want too on land, doesnt do squat when you add water. You are a lot different than most on here John, you openly admit you have limits that are well defined. I wish more were like that but that isnt the case. Knowing your limits, as what caused this thread to start with is NOT something that can be taught. I am talking full cave, there is a large mental learning curve after that class, physical skills should be there or you should FAIL. No exception should be made. Lets face it, if you failed half your students you probably wouldnt get as many referrals. I think that makes a lot of instructors pass those they shouldnt.

 

[USFpsychDiver]

Well Bob, my only issue with what you said is that in cave diving you either CAN or you CAN'T. Instructor shouldnt matter. If you CAN'T perform, you really could die very easily. My only fault with instructors is more people should be failing classes from what I see.

From a beginning cave diver's perspective, I by no means am qualified to go laying line down some silty hole just because I have a cert card that says I can. Like any diving, the class teaches the basic skills; experience lets you use them. It's a very different thing finding a line in a blackout mask knowing my instructor is hovering behind me and trying to find a line in a real silt-out. Today I'm very comfortable in OW and feel like I could deal with most problems without undue anxiety. My stress level is up in the cave because I've spent less time there and it's a more challenging environment. So I did my initial post-training dives on the gold line. Have just recently started doing jumps with a more experienced buddy running the line. Diving again this weekend and next week and plan to run the reels on a few of those jumps I've already done. Incremental experience with mentoring is the only real way to learn procedures, which is a very different kind of learning than learning information, which you can do with lectures and textbooks. It's not a binary thing, either CAN or CAN'T cave dive; it's do I feel right today in pushing ever so slightly into something I haven't done yet with a more experienced dive buddy/mentor who I'm comfortable with. I see lots of examples of student/instructor mentoring that continues well after the formal class is over.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

From a beginning cave diver's perspective, I by no means am qualified to go laying line down some silty hole just because I have a cert card that says I can. Like any diving, the class teaches the basic skills; experience lets you use them. It's a very different thing finding a line in a blackout mask knowing my instructor is hovering behind me and trying to find a line in a real silt-out. Today I'm very comfortable in OW and feel like I could deal with most problems without undue anxiety. My stress level is up in the cave because I've spent less time there and it's a more challenging environment. So I did my initial post-training dives on the gold line. Have just recently started doing jumps with a more experienced buddy running the line. Diving again this weekend and next week and plan to run the reels on a few of those jumps I've already done. Incremental experience with mentoring is the only real way to learn procedures, which is a very different kind of learning than learning information, which you can do with lectures and textbooks. It's not a binary thing, either CAN or CAN'T cave dive; it's do I feel right today in pushing ever so slightly into something I haven't done yet with a more experienced dive buddy/mentor who I'm comfortable with. I see lots of examples of student/instructor mentoring that continues well after the formal class is over.

It is as simple as CAN or CANT, if you dont believe me, go try and ask some of the 16 divers who have died in caves since I have been doing it. I plainly said the mental aspect has to have time to delelop. The basic skills you should have, and its probably better to think they need improving at all times no matter how long you have been diving. Congrats on being new, i often said cavern was the best class I ever took.

 

[Jax]

It is as simple as CAN or CANT, if you dont believe me, go try and ask some of the 16 divers who have died in caves since I have been doing it. I plainly said the mental aspect has to have time to develop. The basic skills you should have, and its probably better to think they need improving at all times no matter how long you have been diving. Congrats on being new, i often said cavern was the best class I ever took.

Personally, I like Yoda's version better: Do, or do not. There is no try.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Personally, I like Yoda's version better: Do, or do not. There is no try.

You better do or I will kick your butt lol

 

[Jax]

You better do or I will kick your butt lol

I believe I have attained the training, knowledge and skills to do.

. . . Executing with any modicum of grace, however. . . .