When is a skill "mastered"?

[Pullmyfinger]

When has a skill been mastered?

I can show you better than I can tell you. Haha!

 

[DevonDiver]

 

[The Chairman]

Show me where, on performance standards for any skill (except hover), it states "whilst neutrally buoyant". It doesn't....

Now, you're just missing the point. The standard says "fluid and repeatable". If they can't repeat it while hovering, then they have failed the standard. It doesn't specify planted on the knees only. It's up to the instructor to dictate where the skill is to be repeated and not the student. Heck, the student might demand that the skill be performed on the surface or next to it. No, the instructor is the one in charge of training.

Again, you've bought into the false hype that PADI unduly restricts their instructors from requiring excellence. That is not the case. Any such limits are in the minds of instructors only and not in any PADI literature. Can an instructor only ask their students to clear their masks while kneeling? Unfortunately, yes. However, that does not stop the same instructor from requiring that the mask be cleared while being mid water. Having to drop to their knees in order to accomplish this task would be far short of "fluid"? In fact, passing such a student would be counter to PADI standards.

Misconceptions and assumptions are the biggest problem in any endeavor and that includes teaching Scuba. If you feel that having to kneel on the bottom to accomplish the goal of clearing a mask is acceptable, you are saying a lot more about yourself than any agency. Like all the agencies, PADI is relying on it's instructor cadre' to implement not just the letter, but also the spirit of their standards. Incompetent instructors will allow something far less than "fluid and repeatable" and even defend their actions as being within standards. Misguided instructors will try to get their students to perform skills in a fluid and repeatable manner, but will often fold due to the misconception that their agency not only thinks this is acceptable but actually requires you to pass them. Great instructors will use standards to demand the very best out of their students. Rather than be hindered by them, they will see that they protect their demand of excellence as as much as to protect the student from rogue instructors.

 

[dbulmer]

Pete,
I read Andy's post differently - seemed to me that Andy does not like OW skills treated in isolation and that the bigger picture of performing skills in neutral buoyancy is not explicitly required in the standards - that it is an option that the less gifted instructor can fall back on but an option which he would not take.

 

[TMHeimer]

I recently (for the first time) DMd for an instructor who had them do some skills while swimming at depth (pool) or hovering. I was surprised that it seemed students didin't have much more trouble with this than the usual "on the knees". I figured they might, having read a lot of posts on this. Got me thinking about which skills.... many are N/A--ei. CESA, no mask swim, deep water entry, etc. The ones that seem applicable are mask clearing, reg retrieval, free flow, air depletion, removing /replacing belt at depth and unit (BC) at depth. I can see that the last two could be a little harder while not on knees, but not really the first four. Are we perhaps making a little more of this than necessary? Of course, doing anything while maintaining neutral buoyancy is good practise, but I learned it all on my knees and think I did OK after certified. Just a thought.

 

[nimoh]

Now, you're just missing the point. The standard says "fluid and repeatable". If they can't repeat it while hovering, then they have failed the standard.

If a student can't clear their mask while hovering, then it seems to me that they would need to return to the nearest bottom if they flooded their mask on a safety stop

 

[boulderjohn]

mask clearing, reg retrieval, free flow, air depletion, removing /replacing belt at depth and unit (BC) at depth. I can see that the last two could be a little harder while not on knees, but not really the first four.

Those fiirst skills are not only not harder in horizontal position, most are easier in that position. Regulator recovery is almost ridiculously easy--it is hard to lose it. When you use the reach method in horizontal position, gravity puts the hose right behind the ear; when kneeling gravity pulls the tank away from you an out of reach. More importantly, all those skills are different when kneeling than when horizontal. We are supposed to teach students to tilt their head back when clearing a mask. Why? So the bottom of the mask will be the lowest point and let the water out. But when students are on their knees, the bottom of the mask is already the lowest point, and tilting the head is counterproductive. When you teach them on their knees, they learn that the way to get the mask in the proper position is to put the entire body upright. I know a Master Instructor who discovered when she took Intro to Tech and was not allowed to clear the mask in an upright position that she had never in her life done it any other way--she had never in her life cleared a mask in horizontal position.

 

[DevonDiver]

Now, you're just missing the point. The standard says "fluid and repeatable". If they can't repeat it while hovering, then they have failed the standard. It doesn't specify planted on the knees only. It's up to the instructor to dictate where the skill is to be repeated and not the student. Heck, the student might demand that the skill be performed on the surface or next to it. No, the instructor is the one in charge of training.

Again, you've bought into the false hype that PADI unduly restricts their instructors from requiring excellence. That is not the case.Any such limits are in the minds of instructors only and not in any PADI literature. Can an instructor only ask their students to clear their masks while kneeling? Unfortunately, yes. However, that does not stop the same instructor from requiring that the mask be cleared while being mid water. Having to drop to their knees in order to accomplish this task would be far short of "fluid"? In fact, passing such a student would be counter to PADI standards.

Pete, you seem to be missing a big point. Demand a student does the skill hovering...fine. Fail them for buoyancy issues when doing that skill in a hover... that's a breach of standards.

If they complained....and they could.... then PADI would recognize a standards issue under QA.

You cannot add your own performance standards as an instructor for the sake of assessment. That is made abundantly clear on IDC.

That does not mean, in any way, that you can't get your students to practice skills in neutral bouyancy. It just means you cannot assess them on buoyancy, when that is not the skill being run at that time.

The definition of "fluid" has nothing to do with it... that deals with the micro-performance of the skill, not the 'big picture'.

 

[TMHeimer]

Those fiirst skills are not only not harder in horizontal position, most are easier in that position. Regulator recovery is almost ridiculously easy--it is hard to lose it. When you use the reach method in horizontal position, gravity puts the hose right behind the ear; when kneeling gravity pulls the tank away from you an out of reach. More importantly, all those skills are different when kneeling than when horizontal. We are supposed to teach students to tilt their head back when clearing a mask. Why? So the bottom of the mask will be the lowest point and let the water out. But when students are on their knees, the bottom of the mask is already the lowest point, and tilting the head is counterproductive. When you teach them on their knees, they learn that the way to get the mask in the proper position is to put the entire body upright. I know a Master Instructor who discovered when she took Intro to Tech and was not allowed to clear the mask in an upright position that she had never in her life done it any other way--she had never in her life cleared a mask in horizontal position.

Agree on all points. It would seem that it would be easy for the MI to figure out as I did that when swimming you simply raise your head to an upright position then clear the mask. Agree that doing those skills in the water column is different than when kneeling, but how different really? If some of those skills are actually easier in the water column, one would think "what's the difference--maybe it's a bit more challenging on the knees" (and you may be right at the bottom anyway when you need to do them)?

 

[dbulmer]

To answer the question directly, when is a skill mastered?

When the skill is performed outside a teaching environment without a (significant) loss of buoyancy control, trim or environmental/situational awareness which enables the diver to say whoops instead of ****.