No solo diving in overhead environment

[Glenlivet]

Here is another perspective on the question of solo diving in an overhead environment. The person is well qualified and experienced and clearly thinks it is okay.

Sorry, but what is your point? What do you want?

If you don't want to dive solo in an overhead environment: don't do it

If you want to dive solo in an overhead environment: get cave training & experience and do it

If you want someone to tell you diving solo in an overhead environment is ok so you don't have to accept the responsibility for your decisions and actions: forget it.
It is your decision and your decision alone. No one and especially no agency can take that off your hands.

 

[Foxfish]

If you want to dive solo in an overhead environment: get cave training & experience and do it.

Leaving the question of whether a solo diver should enter any overhead environment aside for a minute, what kind of training would you recommend? Firstly I'm diving in the ocean. What did you learn in cave training about understanding ocean conditions like wind, swell and current and their influence the risks of diving in an overhead environment?

Secondly nearly all the 'caverns' in which I dive have multiple large openings allowing a diver to easily exit from all areas of the cavern, are well illuminated and have no chance of silting. If I required a torch to see within the cavern or a string line I would not enter.

The difficulty I have is accepting that doing any kind of overhead course is going to be of much use in these circumstances.

 

[Glenlivet]

Leaving the question of whether a solo diver should enter any overhead environment aside for a minute, what kind of training would you recommend? Firstly I'm diving in the ocean. What did you learn in cave training about understanding ocean conditions like wind, swell and current and their influence the risks of diving in an overhead environment?

In my eyes, you would need training and/or experience for the ocean conditions present at the site and at least the basics for diving in enclosed spaces like horizontal trim, non-silting propulsion (frog kick, modified flutter), precise buoyancy control and precisely positioning yourself by only using your fins (back kick, helicopter turn).

Whether you get all this through a class or by training and educating yourself is up to you.

Secondly nearly all the 'caverns' in which I dive have multiple large openings allowing a diver to easily exit from all areas of the cavern, are well illuminated and have no chance of silting. If I required a torch to see within the cavern or a string line I would not enter.

The difficulty I have is accepting that doing any kind of overhead course is going to be of much use in these circumstances.

I can't comment on that, since I know that I don't know enough about caves and caverns.

But I would recommend two books from Steve Lewis to you: "Staying Alive" and "The Six Skills and Other Discussions".

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Here is another perspective on the question of solo diving in an overhead environment. The person is well qualified and experienced and clearly thinks it is okay.




Lets talk about? the S word.

... the person is dead ... she died solo in a cave ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 4th, 2014 at 09:43 AM ----------

If you read the quotations from Steve Lewis speaking on behalf of both SDI and TDI and the literature published by SDI the position is unchanged for both recreational and technical divers. They do not recommend, among other things, trained divers diving solo in overhead environments.

You're assuming that Steve Lewis is the ultimate authority on solo diving. I doubt even Steve would agree with that opinion. Steve speaks only for himself and the agency he represents. Once you've familiarized yourself with a few agencies, you'll begin to realize that there are a great many things they do not agree on.

FWIW - it wasn't that many years ago that every agency except one were almost fanatically against the recreational use of nitrox ... many publishing "scholarly" articles on how dangerous it was for the recreational user. They have since changed their mind. What changed it? It certainly wasn't the physics behind using nitrox.

Regarding the article, your comments would be more convincing if the author was speaking on behalf of the cave diving association in Australia, but clearly she is not. They were her own opinions. If the cave diving association came out and said they sanctioned trained members solo diving in caves then I think you may have a point. But if the cave diving association stated that they do not recommend their members diving solo your argument falls in a heap.

There is one other slant on this that you may be intending to express which is that the instruction agencies we've mentioned are telling their members or trainees that they are neutral on the issue of them diving solo in an overhead environment, but to the public they are stating that they have a strong position that they do not sanction (or recommend) solo diving in an overhead environment. That seems to me a rather cynical position. At this stage I don't see any documented evidence that would lead me to question the integrity of the agencies in that way. They may allow divers the freedom to ignore their recommendations but that is different.

Outside of the classroom, agencies don't "allow" divers to do anything. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what agencies are for. They don't create standards for diving ... they create standards for teaching diving ... and those are two very different things. When I teach a class I MUST follow the standards of my agency ... because not doing so opens me up to legal liabilities if one of my students gets hurt. That doesn't necessarily mean that diving outside of those standards is dangerous ... it means that the agencies, after collaborating with their insurance providers and legal staff, have determined that the conditions they stipulate are the safest way to train people who are learning how to dive ... and that their insurers have agreed to terms for coverage if these conditions are followed.

As an example ... most agencies stipulate that a snorkel MUST be worn during OW class.. Does that mean that someone who chooses not to wear a snorkel once class is over is somehow diving outside of their training, or somehow doing something dangerous? No it does not. The use of a snorkel is a personal decision that should be made depending on the circumstances and conditions of the dive, as well as how compatible it is with other equipment choices the diver is making.

Agencies are not the ultimate authority on "safe" diving ... they don't attempt to be. As a business, their rules are intended to help them limit their own liability while students are in classes. Once class is over, the diver needs to be capable of making their own decisions how they dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Foxfish]

From an article after her death:

Mr Higgins says cave diving is more rigorously policed here. All advanced caves in Australia are under lock and key, and who gets the key is controlled by the Cave Divers Association, in which he is an advanced cave instructor. He says safety is a priority. Even after you've completed a cave-diving course, it still takes at least three years before you're allowed to attempt the advanced caves.

The association's official position is that it is opposed to solo diving, that cave divers should be with a buddy - although individuals have differing views. It has emerged that Ms Milowka was solo diving last Sunday.

Mr Higgins has previously done solo diving himself and says it can be done while minimising the risks. ''But you're never going to eliminate all risk, or with anything that you do in life.''


Steve Trewavas, national director of the Cave Divers Association, says it appears that she breached at least a couple of guidelines. Solo diving is one, and the circumstances around which she was diving solo remain unclear.


Another is the use of marked lines on intercepting lines within the cave. If you come to an intersection where there is another line, you're supposed to mark the intersection with an arrow indicating the return route so you can feel your way out.

''She probably went over at least eight or nine intersecting lines which she never marked,'' he says.

Read more: The lure of the deep
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Another cave diving instruction agency that does not recommend or sanction cave diving solo. I question the sense of requiring all this training and making up these rules if the organisation fosters a culture that allows divers to casually disregard them once they are certified.

 

[boulderjohn]

I consider misrepresenting the position an instruction agency takes on a topic such as this to be a serious failing. I'd put it up there with encouraging divers to go beyond the limits of their training. How about you John?

Here in America, we had a famous problem involving our then President, Richard Nixon, a problem known as Watergate. There were hearings to determine if he had breached the law. During a hearing, Nixon's attorneys were answering questions about a document that clearly showed culpability. They kept insisting that words that obviously meant one thing meant something else. When Senator Sam Ervin pressed them on that point, insisting that the words meant what they obviously did, they asked him how he knew that was what they meant. In exasperation, Ervin replied, "Because I speak the English Language. It's my mother tongue!"

I understand how Ervin felt. I have read this thread and tried to figure out what you are saying. I speak the English language. It is my mother tongue. But you have me baffled.

 

[Foxfish]

When Senator Sam Ervin pressed them on that point, insisting that the words meant what they obviously did, they asked him how he knew that was what they meant. In exasperation, Ervin replied, "Because I speak the English Language. It's my mother tongue!"

Use that as the guiding principle for interpreting comments by the instruction agencies I've mentioned that explicitly state they don't sanction or recommend diving solo in an overhead environment.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Here's a different perspective ... Cave Excursions

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OtherHalf]

Use that as the guiding principle for interpreting comments by the instruction agencies I've mentioned that explicitly state they don't sanction or recommend diving solo in an overhead environment.

And yet we've pointed out at least one agency that does, and we continue to point out that agencies don't make rules, they make guidelines for training, and here in the US, we have the fundamental right to make decide to dive against the ADVICE of an agency whose rules have no legal basis.

Why is it so important to you that an agency sanction the practice? Agencies have lawyers whose job is to protect that agency from liability. Most will always go on the record against diving outside specific training. Why do you think PADI has so many specialties: it makes money and protects them from liability!

Why is the rationale of having separate instruction, as most all the solo-cave divers use, insufficient for you? Did you receive instruction for every condition you've ever dove in? I mean, do we need to add Deep-Night-Nitrox to do a dive to 110' on EAN32 at midnight?

 

[tstormdiver]

The difficulty I have is accepting that doing any kind of overhead course is going to be of much use in these circumstances.

Simple answer,... How can it hurt? I have, & many others have, always seen improvement in knowledge & skills as an asset. One of the most valuable lessons I learned in my cave courses is to consider the "What if's",... Things I would have never otherwise even considered. There were also many other things I learned in cave training that 99.99999.......% of people would never consider. Information, knowledge & skill can be your friend when the doo doo hits the rotating oscillator. Believe it or not, Yes, my cave training (in high flow caves) did help me to learn to navigate high current areas of the ocean, by carefully choosing hand holds & reading the currents to avoid the worst. By most of my diving, I am a quarry rat & don't deal with currents very often, but it really helped in the Galapagos where the currents are strong & crazy. Yes, the crossovers are few, but still there. There is no scuba police & no one can make you do it,... but wouldn't you rather have the deck stacked as much in your favor, as possible?