Recreational Sidemount ...

[flots am]

I tell my students to use whats needed for the dive. Based on the logic of using the same gear for muscle memory I would use doubles with multiple stage/deco bottles on 20' beach dives. If you cant adapt then you shouldnt be diving at these levels.

I always dive with (more or less) the same configuration.

A 20' beach dive could easily be done in sidemount with a couple of 30's.

Deeper dives get bigger tanks.

I'm not sure exactly why it bothers you if someone else wants to keep their gas in two tanks instead of one.

flots.

 

[victorzamora]

flots, I'm actually dying for a set of LP50s for that reason. Maybe I can find a great deal on some 30s or 40s.....there's always something else I want to buy

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Very well, then. Getting back to the theme of the thread, part of the instructional requirements might include the appropriateness of the gear configuration.

That would be the "advantages and drawbacks" I've already mentioned a couple times. I avoid the term "appropriate", because it infers a judgment that begs the question "appropriate for whom?". And it would include some of the things I've learned the hard way about the drawbacks of sidemount on certain types of boats. I would still not presume to tell my students that they shouldn't do it, but rather give them some idea of what to expect if they should choose to.

I think the biggest difference between you and me, Frank, is that I'm used to treating people like adults. You run your business as you see fit ... the more I hear about it the less inclined I'd be to use it, and I honestly do appreciate the information as it helps me make a better decision about what I should expect if I should choose to. I've only ever gone out on a boat in Florida once, out of Panama City, on a very enjoyable day of diving some shallow wrecks. Fortunately the boat owner not only allowed me to use my sidemount equipment, he supplied me tanks that were "appropriate" for the configuration. He didn't tell me what I "needed" ... he asked me what I needed. The difference is significant.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Teller]

I tell my students to use whats needed for the dive. Based on the logic of using the same gear for muscle memory I would use doubles with multiple stage/deco bottles on 20' beach dives. If you cant adapt then you shouldnt be diving at these levels.

I always dive with (more or less) the same configuration.

A 20' beach dive could easily be done in sidemount with a couple of 30's.

Deeper dives get bigger tanks.

I'm not sure exactly why it bothers you if someone else wants to keep their gas in two tanks instead of one.

flots.

I dont care what you do. Im saying I dont see a need to carry two cylinders on a dive that doesnt require it.

 

[Wookie]

That would be the "advantages and drawbacks" I've already mentioned a couple times. I avoid the term "appropriate", because it infers a judgment that begs the question "appropriate for whom?". And it would include some of the things I've learned the hard way about the drawbacks of sidemount on certain types of boats. I would still not presume to tell my students that they shouldn't do it, but rather give them some idea of what to expect if they should choose to.

I think the biggest difference between you and me, Frank, is that I'm used to treating people like adults. You run your business as you see fit ... the more I hear about it the less inclined I'd be to use it, and I honestly do appreciate the information as it helps me make a better decision about what I should expect if I should choose to. I've only ever gone out on a boat in Florida once, out of Panama City, on a very enjoyable day of diving some shallow wrecks. Fortunately the boat owner not only allowed me to use my sidemount equipment, he supplied me tanks that were "appropriate" for the configuration. He didn't tell me what I "needed" ... he asked me what I needed. The difference is significant.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Exactly. You want to be treated like an adult, as do most folks. What that leads to is 24 individuals all scattering like cats. That may be fine on a day boat out of Panama City, but may not work so well on a liveaboard out of Key West. You see, when the divers all do their own thing, we end up with the chase boat spending a lot of time out collecting divers, because in a free for all, some can't navigate, some run out of gas, some lost their buddy, and some just don't come home. Sending the chase boat for divers who just want to be treated like adults means it isn't available for those who have true emergencies and need it to survive. Being treated like an adult means so many different things to so many people, because quite frankly, who of us thinks we're lousy divers? What percentage of divers out there do you believe really are lousy divers?

We offer free for all dive trips. We advertise them as such. We welcome monkey divers, sidemount divers, rebreather divers, those who want extended bottom times, as well as those who want to dive single tank backmount recreational dives. We prepare for those trips. We have extra staff. We don't care about your configuration, because we feel those trips are a time for learning. We carry a bunch of instructors for those who want to learn. They are extremely successful. It's all about timing, and appropriateness.

 

[gekodivebali]

The exception here is when you are training for a dive that does require the use of two or more cylinders.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't every dive a training dive?
I dive sidemount unless I'm teaching ow, rescue or dm. At one point, I found myself diving 5 different rigs (ccr, twin bm, single bm with bp, jacket bcd and sidemounted doubles) regularly. It's now nice to stick to the one that works best for most activities.

 

[flots am]

flots, I'm actually dying for a set of LP50s for that reason. Maybe I can find a great deal on some 30s or 40s.....there's always something else I want to buy

It's awesome! I have two 30's, two 45's and two 98's.

That pretty much covers gas for anyplace I want to be.

flots

 

[Teller]

The exception here is when you are training for a dive that does require the use of two or more cylinders.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't every dive a training dive?
I dive sidemount unless I'm teaching ow, rescue or dm. At one point, I found myself diving 5 different rigs (ccr, twin bm, single bm with bp, jacket bcd and sidemounted doubles) regularly. It's now nice to stick to the one that works best for most activities.

SB just gets more and more political everyday. I think you know what I meant.

flots, I'm actually dying for a set of LP50s for that reason. Maybe I can find a great deal on some 30s or 40s.....there's always something else I want to buy

It's awesome! I have two 30's, two 45's and two 98's.

That pretty much covers gas for anyplace I want to be.

flots

That is what I am talking about. Why use two 30s or 45s when you can use one of your 98s?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Exactly. You want to be treated like an adult, as do most folks. What that leads to is 24 individuals all scattering like cats. That may be fine on a day boat out of Panama City, but may not work so well on a liveaboard out of Key West. You see, when the divers all do their own thing, we end up with the chase boat spending a lot of time out collecting divers, because in a free for all, some can't navigate, some run out of gas, some lost their buddy, and some just don't come home. Sending the chase boat for divers who just want to be treated like adults means it isn't available for those who have true emergencies and need it to survive. Being treated like an adult means so many different things to so many people, because quite frankly, who of us thinks we're lousy divers? What percentage of divers out there do you believe really are lousy divers?

We offer free for all dive trips. We advertise them as such. We welcome monkey divers, sidemount divers, rebreather divers, those who want extended bottom times, as well as those who want to dive single tank backmount recreational dives. We prepare for those trips. We have extra staff. We don't care about your configuration, because we feel those trips are a time for learning. We carry a bunch of instructors for those who want to learn. They are extremely successful. It's all about timing, and appropriateness.

Frank ... you're assuming I wouldn't be able or willing to make and follow a dive plan that's compatible with your house rules, with what others on the trip are doing, and that's within the limits of safe diving practices without some enforcement on your part. That's a false premise. My expection of being treated like an adult includes me behaving like one.

Perhaps you have those rules because you cater to a demographic that's used to doing guided dives, and being told what to do all the time. That's not the mindset where I live and dive. Here, people are expected to be capable of planning and executing dives unsupervised straight out of OW. We don't do divemasters or dive guides here. Our charters don't make or enforce dive plans for their clients. Some of them set time limits, but most expect you to tell them what your plan is, so they know what to expect. And we dive in an environment that isn't exactly benign.

It's a difference in mentality. If I choose to dive twin tanks, it isn't logical to assume I'm going to hare off on my own and stay longer than the boat rules say I should. It's logical to assume that I'm going to plan and execute my dive within the expectations of the boat crew and the people I'm diving with ... that I'm going to convey that plan to those same people before the dive ... and that once underwater I'm going to stick to it. That's just how we roll here ... and why it's possible and common to see mixed dive teams consisting of people diving OC singles, doubles, and/or rebreathers without much difficulty.

I've done several liveaboard trips in the Channel Islands on boats that probably aren't much different than yours ... and the only time we've ever needed to use the chase boat was one time up around San Miguel when a rogue current caught us all by surprise. That required the boat to pretty much pick up everybody, because the main boat was double-anchored ... and even those with scooters couldn't manage to make their way back to it. This is what our boat typically looked like ... and we were all doing recreational dives ...

Nobody had the difficulties you claim, and there were no silly rules telling us what equipment we were or weren't allowed to use. I seriously doubt you have conditions in the Keys that are any more challenging than those we were diving in, particularly up around San Miguel Island.

If your clients are, as you say, "scattering like cats", that indicates a lack of preparation or self-discipline to make and stick to a plan ... that's a skills and/or attitude problem, not one that has anything to do with the choice of equipment they're using.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[victorzamora]

I dont care what you do. Im saying I dont see a need to carry two cylinders on a dive that doesnt require it.

This is something that should be covered in a good SM course, or with a mentor. Determining the pros and cons of each system, including one tank vs two. If I'm on a little reef dive where everyone is diving AL80s I'll take one AL80. I think the crucial factor here is that NO dive "requires" two cylinders. It's up to an individual diver to determine what's required. Some divers see no need for mix or redundancy at 240ft. Others see the need for mix and redundancy at 100ft. It's up to the individual diver to determine what's required. This isn't me being political, it's me being realistic. If I feel safer at 60ft on a reef in perfect conditions with two tanks, who are you to tell me the second tank isn't required? Who am I to tell you that it is?

That is what I am talking about. Why use two 30s or 45s when you can use one of your 98s?

I like two tanks for redundancy. Like I mentioned earlier, I've done some MinGas numbers and it scared me. I really like redundancy....not on every dive, but there's no reason to not add some in if it doesn't cause any (or much) additional hassle. Another reason for two little tanks is this: diving with an instabuddy. If you're in a position where you can't dive with someone you trust, you're really doing a solo dive. If you're diving two little tanks anyway, there's little to worry about. Without redundancy, I'd want a good buddy (or a REALLY shallow dive)....and that's not always an option.