Advanced training questions

[Bob DBF]

I agree with the underwater nav part. But for deep diving, by deep, AOW means beyond 60ft, right? Say 60-100ft, I think what you learn in GUE/UTD entry level classes, ie. dive planning, gas planning, ascent procedure, emergency procedure, ... will be at least as good if not better than an average AOW, unless OP find a very good instructor. This is apart from the essential skill refinement you receive.

The problem is that the OP needs a card that will allow him to deep dive on a boat that has a zero tolerance stand on diving below the recommended limit of your certification. GUE and UTD may very well be fine classes, however they will have him sitting on the boat instead of diving.



Bob
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The day I can't dive anymore, I will really need some other good reasons to stay alive. DarkAbyss

 

[AfterDark]

I agree with the underwater nav part. But for deep diving, by deep, AOW means beyond 60ft, right? Say 60-100ft, I think what you learn in GUE/UTD entry level classes, ie. dive planning, gas planning, ascent procedure, emergency procedure, ... will be at least as good if not better than an average AOW, unless OP find a very good instructor. This is apart from the essential skill refinement you receive.

I agree with you, I know zip about GUE/UTD but if they teach, dive planning, gas planning, ascent procedure, emergency procedure, equipment, buoyancy control, trim, team diving, situational awareness, and other essential skills .........IMO they are already far and away better than the joke I took called PADI AOW 2 years ago. I'm not sure the student that wanted the pink BCD because it was pink would have caught on to those concepts but then that student shouldn't have an AOW card either.....IMO.

Nav can be self taught especially if practiced on land 1st. With GPS you can even check how well you're are doing using your compass; just don't cheat!

Seems to me also the skills mentioned would be very useful in a Deep diving course. The deep diving in the AOW I took consisted of a short talk about narcosis, colors a little mention of using more air and a dive to 100' at a place I've been diving since I was 16 years old I'll 60 in a week or so. The week before I'd been diving the U853 @ 130fsw.

Diving deep is more common sense, diving physics and theory. After that most of the skills mentioned are easily self taught. We had no BCDs when I got certified. How did I learn to use it? Self taught. I didn't have a SPG for sometime after I started diving it was more of a luxury back then, so air management was something you learned or got yourself in trouble. When that air came hard you had 300psi left after pulling the reserve rod to open the Jvalve, you should have been well on your back already! My 1st ice dive was done without a SPG. None of these skills are hard to learn.

---------- Post added May 8th, 2014 at 10:16 AM ----------

The problem is that the OP needs a card that will allow him to deep dive on a boat that has a zero tolerance stand on diving below the recommended limit of your certification. GUE and UTD may very well be fine classes, however they will have him sitting on the boat instead of diving.



Bob
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The day I can't dive anymore, I will really need some other good reasons to stay alive. DarkAbyss

That was the only reason I paid for the AOW joke to show some joker the card so I can do what I've been doing all my life.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Not a PADI instructor -- I should have looked at your bio first. Integrating Bouyancy with OW is a great idea especially since DAN identifies poor bouyancy/weight as a contributing factor in many of the accidents. In my OW classes bouyancy was taught but was not worked on in the dives. Unfortunatly, it is not even required for AOW. The two required dives are deep and NAV. Deep is OK since most vacation divers are eventually going deep. At least bouyancy should be substituted for NAV.

Regardless of agency, buoyancy control is an essential part of the class standards. If the class is taught as it's meant to be taught, the essentials of buoyancy control are included in the class. Unfortunately, in the real world that doesn't happen due to time and cost constraints ... buoyancy control isn't a skill that can be demonstrated once and checked off the list, it's an ongoing continuum of "mastery" that requires multiple dives worth of practice to properly develop, even for the occasional tourist diver. It often gets overlooked in OW class due to the manner in which those classes teach skills (while kneeling). Fortunately, PADI has adopted new standards that should encourage better buoyancy skills by training divers while hovering.

A properly taught class emphasizes buoyancy control on every dive ... regardless of what else is being taught. It's like breathing ... something you need to do all the time, regardless of what else you're doing. It cannot be segregated from other skills.

In regards to the GUI/fundies courses I have no doubt that they provide some essential skills for the OW-level diver. The lack of shops/instructors is a barrier and the elitist/mission-oriented approach may put off a lot of casual (vacation) divers. Gas planning and team diving are not needed for the vacation diver. By vacation diver I mean someone who dives occasionally and does not take the sport as a serious hobby. As you already know this is the lowest level group that PADI targets.

Some level of gas planning needs to be taught to all divers. Read your DAN statistics again ... something like 40% of all diving accidents, at all levels, have OOA/LOA as either the primary or proximate cause. Team diving isn't needed for the vacation diver, since they mostly dive in herds with a dive guide as the herd leader. However, a great many accidents involving vacation divers also list buddy separation as a primary or proximate cause, which would indicate that some level of team skills should be taught even to the diver who is only going to be involved in diving with a group, and with a dive guide. Either that or there should be more emphasis on self-sufficiency at the entry level training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Steve_C]

Team diving isn't needed for the vacation diver, since they mostly dive in herds with a dive guide as the herd leader.

I started out as a vacation diver. I have maybe two herd dives total and that was on a cruise and I did not like it since the herd was rushing on ahead and I wanted to look at stuff. But to be honest my buddy and I said the hell with it and followed along at our own pace and met the herd back at the boat.

The point is that there is lots of vacation diving such as in the Keys that may not be herd diving. Instabuddy yes, herd maybe not.

I probably should add a couple drift dives of WPB which were supposed to have a group guide but the guide/herd disappeared before my buddy was ready so again we just went as a buddy pair. Divers need to be ready to be herdless and be able to cope with it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Divers need to be ready to be herdless and be able to cope with it.

... actually Steve, that's exactly what I said in the sentences directly following the one you quoted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Steve_C]

... actually Steve, that's exactly what I said in the sentences directly following the one you quoted ...

You're right. Sorry about that.

 

[TSandM]

My husband teaches AOW, but it's one of his least favorite classes to teach here in Puget Sound. He'd love it, if the Deep dive weren't mandatory. Few students presenting for AOW have the skills you'd ideally like to see someone have to do deep dives. They can't control descents well enough to keep a buddy pair together, without going down a line. Their SAC rates are too high, mostly due to inefficient diving technique. Buoyancy control may be pretty decent at depth, but gets shaky in the shallows, where you want the most control at the end of a deep dive. And unless they went through our OW class or Peter's Nitrox class, they have no sense of gas management at all. You can't fix all of that in a single dive, or often in the three which are the maximum you get before you take the student deep (unless you want to schedule the Deep dive on a day of its own, anyway).

I'd like to see divers do a Fundies-like, intensive class on buoyancy, buddy skills, situational awareness, and gas management, before taking AOW. Or better yet, create an AOW that teaches THOSE things, and then let the student go on to do navigation and deep after he's had a chance to do a bit of diving at the OW level to solidify those skills.

I realize the OP's question really has to do with access. But the real question is, is that access wise?

 

[nimoh]

My husband teaches AOW, but it's one of his least favorite classes to teach here in Puget Sound. He'd love it, if the Deep dive weren't mandatory. Few students presenting for AOW have the skills you'd ideally like to see someone have to do deep dives. They can't control descents well enough to keep a buddy pair together, without going down a line. Their SAC rates are too high, mostly due to inefficient diving technique. Buoyancy control may be pretty decent at depth, but gets shaky in the shallows, where you want the most control at the end of a deep dive. And unless they went through our OW class or Peter's Nitrox class, they have no sense of gas management at all. You can't fix all of that in a single dive, or often in the three which are the maximum you get before you take the student deep (unless you want to schedule the Deep dive on a day of its own, anyway).

I'd like to see divers do a Fundies-like, intensive class on buoyancy, buddy skills, situational awareness, and gas management, before taking AOW. Or better yet, create an AOW that teaches THOSE things, and then let the student go on to do navigation and deep after he's had a chance to do a bit of diving at the OW level to solidify those skills.

I realize the OP's question really has to do with access. But the real question is, is that access wise?

I thought something similar. When I took PPB, I came away thinking that two dives was not enough...it should be a course on its own.

 

[iluvtheocean]

i think myself that deep,nav, and ppb should be required but with ppb required 1st. it all depends on the instructor though how well each will be though....
working on ppb on shallow water dives (10-15 feet?)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's a matter of approach. When I first started teaching AOW, I was going over the curriculum with one of my students when he asked me which dive was the one where we were going to work on buoyancy control ... I replied "all of them" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)